Therapy and Theology

Lysa TerKeurst:
Welcome to Therapy & Theology. I'm Lisa TerKeurst, and with me I have Dr. Joel Muddamalle and licensed professional counselor Jim Cress. We are doing a series right now in Therapy & Theology called “Let's Stop Avoiding This Conversation: 6 Topics Women Have Big Questions About.” In Episode 1 of this series, we talked about why everyone loses when a woman is devalued. In this very important episode, I want to talk about the part emotional abuse plays in silencing women. Mainly, we're going to really focus on the silencing of women, but first I want to make sure we understand that there are two categories of silencing women, and we're going to cover those two different categories.

In this episode, we're going to cover one, and in the next episode we're going to cover the other. In this episode, we're going to focus on personal silencing, and in the next episode public silencing. But let me first start by defining “emotional abuse.” [To Joel and Jim:] And certainly if you guys have anything you want to add to this definition, please feel free to do so because like I always say, Joel, you're going to bring the deep theology. Jim brings the therapeutic wisdom and education, and I bring the issues and sometimes Google definitions. OK?

Jim Cress:
Yes. Why not? Absolutely.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Here's what I found from Psychology Today. Emotional abuse is a pattern of behavior — and if you're a note-taking person, I would love for you to really highlight that word "pattern." It's not a mistake that someone makes that's just an offshoot, a rare happening, something that … because they are in an emotionally sad place right now, it happened or whatever.

Jim Cress:
It's not a one-off.

Lysa TerKeurst:
It's not a one-off. So emotional abuse is a pattern of behavior in which the perpetrator insults, humiliates and generally instills fear in an individual in order to control them. The individual's reality may become distorted as they internalize the abuse as their own failings. I think the second word I'd want to highlight is “internalizing” what the perpetrator or the abuser says. They take it inside of them and really think it's their own thought or their own failing. Anything you want to add to that?

Jim Cress:
Well, we've talked about before — indeed, in the last episode — about Aristotle saying “we are what we repeatedly do,” and I say “repeatedly do and think.” I like that [word] “internalization.” After I do that so many times, I think it's experientially, for me, with what I see in people and what's been my own journey … At times, it's autonomic and automatic. I'm not even trying to do that rut … where it's like, it just goes right in. It becomes automatic, and the next thing you know, I'm believing what are really lies, and in that moment, I believe them in that moment.

Lysa TerKeurst:
The other danger, I think, is people back away from calling emotional abuse “abuse.”

Jim Cress:
Yeah, they do.

Lysa TerKeurst:
It's a lot easier to name physical abuse because you see it; you can touch it. It's just so very evident. I think people are nervous about emotional abuse or even calling what is obviously emotional abuse “abuse” because of several reasons. I've heard, “Well, there are always two sides to every story …” Just a personal caveat here: I really cannot stand when people say “there are always two sides to every story.” I get what they're getting at, but this isn't a spectator sport. This is somebody's life being really, really hurt and diminished and devalued, like we talked about last week. When you say “there are two sides to every story,” why are we even talking about sides? Let's just get straight to the problem and let's help whoever's being hurt.

Jim Cress:
That's more of the emotional abuse, to say, "Well, there's two sides to every story …" And when you look at it now, as kids, we heard — and you all have heard this — "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me." As you know, I told you that I fell recently, just tripped, and I bruised this finger, part of this [finger]. You even noticed it the other day when we were in our planning session, so you can see some of the bruising there. The thing is, even studying domestic violence … This [emotional abuse] is not about going to hit someone, but when you're hit, the body keeps the score; the body knows. The bruising says, "Oh." The tenderness right there says, "I remember; I know what happened." But when it's emotional, and I'm going to add, as we all are going to add, spiritual abuse … Especially when there’s emotional abuse that goes on, I don't always see the bruising. Inside, I'm looking. Did it really happen? Is it true? The other person may be gaslighting me. We've talked about that before, but the body, at least sometimes, keeps the score. Sometimes, I think, most of the time it's worse with emotional abuse — verbal and emotional abuse — than it is with the direct physical [abuse].

Joel Muddamalle:
Well, I think, Jim, another important part of that is yesterday, when you walked in, you had a splint on your finger.

Jim Cress:
Yeah.

Joel Muddamalle:
It was a visible indication for everybody who was in that room that you had gone through some type of traumatic event, some type of injury.

Jim Cress:
Yep, that's right.

Joel Muddamalle:
We all knew to ask a question to consider you: "Is your hand OK?" Even in the healing process, I think what we've learned is that there are different colors that are associated with different stages—

Jim Cress:
That's good.

Joel Muddamalle:
— of healing. Yet when we get to emotional abuse, and we'll talk about spiritual abuse later, there's a deceitfulness around it because it's a hidden trauma. It's an internalized trauma and it can become very difficult for people on the outside to even know what is actually going on because there's not some neon sign over your head that's saying, "Hey, I'm walking through emotional abuse right now." So, it makes us really consider how can we identify it and what's actually happening here.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Another danger is sometimes emotional abuse has happened for so long … Maybe it was even in your family of origin, and now it's being continued in your current relationship, and it's been happening so long, what should be alarming has been normalized.

Jim Cress:
That's called Stockholm syndrome, right?

Lysa TerKeurst:
Mm-hmm.

Jim Cress:
Anybody in the trauma field knows it — where you take Patty Hurst that goes way back to the '70s, where you are being held captive, whether you know it or not, emotionally or spiritually by a person, or maybe physically, and after a while, in Stockholm syndrome you begin to take on love for the captor. They're actually being nice to me. Or, This is what I should do. I should allow them to treat me this way. And what I tolerate persists, but that Stockholm syndrome goes on in a lot of emotional abuse.

Lysa TerKeurst:
It's also the telltale sign of dysfunction.

Jim Cress:
Very much.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Because we tend to normalize our own dysfunctions and stop calling them “dysfunction.” What I worry about sometimes is people are experiencing emotional abuse, but because there's this hesitation to call it what it is, then it starts to get normalized. The more it's normalized, the more it is perpetuated. Here's what I want to say about that, though. I don't see tons of women rushing so quickly, wanting to call something emotional abuse.
I think the assumption is, "Oh, we can't give people permission ..." It's not just women. Men get emotionally abused, too, but, "Oh, we don't want to give people permission to call emotional abuse ‘abuse’ because then they will abuse that phraseology, ‘emotional abuse.’” But that's not what I'm seeing. I'm sure that happens some, and so I don't want to discount that as a legitimate concern, but what I see so much more is that women and other people who are being emotionally abused are not rushing to call it “emotional abuse”; they're actually staying silent. I think that should be the bigger concern … that when we don't call something what it is, when we don't call emotional abuse “abuse,” then that in effect is the silencing of a woman.

Jim Cress:
Which is its own internal (if I may say it that way) emotional abuse. Then I have taken what someone else is doing to me, and I’ve internalized it. It'd be like me taking my finger, which was in an accident, and just keeping on whacking it, and just keep going on … That's the danger. I'm calling that naming, not blaming. I'm not going to blame a woman for doing that by any means, or a man, but the idea is I internalize it and I do that self-inflicted emotional abuse. Remember: There's a great function with this. It seems odd, but blaming myself even … Blame's an attempt to discharge pain and discomfort. Shame is self-hatred at my expense; we've said that. If I do internally emotionally abuse myself in a moment, it's an attempted antidote to pain.

It actually works in the moment; research shows that. What happens in the longer term — really, even in the shorter term — is I'm going to bruise my entire soul. But in the moment, it can feel like … We can go down the line of people cutting themselves. You hear a lot of that with younger people in the moment. Not good. All addiction's not good in the long term, but in the moment, it anesthetizes pain temporarily, only to add more pain to yourself and to other people in your relationships.

Lysa TerKeurst:
So, whether a victim is being blamed or a victim is being shamed, both of those would perpetuate this silencing that we're talking about. This week we're going to talk about personal silencing and how it shows up, so let me just give a couple of examples. I think the silencing of a person, and for the specific nature of this series, we're going to say “the silencing of women” … I do want to say, again, I recognize not all victims of emotional abuse are women, and not all women experience emotional abuse, so I just want to put that on the table — but here's how it shows up. If a woman is experiencing emotional abuse, how it contributes to her being silenced is that she feels like maybe it's not right [to tell others], or she's embarrassed to tell other people what's really going on behind closed doors. I would also add maybe she doesn't even know the right way to phrase it, and she has her own hesitations to call it “abuse,” so she dances around it. "Yeah, this person hurting me, they may say some things, but they don't really mean it."

All of a sudden, they're making excuses for what is truly hurting them, so they don't really want to tell people what's going on behind closed doors, and there are so many reasons for that. Maybe she feels it would be disrespectful to the person hurting her if she shares. I see this a lot in Christian settings. I'm a Christian; we're all Christians at this table, so I'm not at all calling out Christians. What I am saying is there's this big emphasis, or at least there was a huge emphasis when I was in my early 20s and entering into a marriage relationship, on the [idea that a] woman is to respect her husband. And I do think women need to respect their husbands. I don't think it's helpful to elevate that to such an extreme that even sharing how she is being hurt is seen as disrespectful. So, I think that's another reason why sometimes it contributes to the silencing of a woman.

Jim Cress:
We all know … We've talked about this. If it’s a marriage we're talking about, just for the moment, the wife may say, "I want to just go to a counselor," or an older woman, like in Titus 2, and share part of what's going on to tell the narrative of how she’s experiencing things in her life and with her husband now. Indeed, that husband often will, if he's not healthy at all, feel betrayed. It's the Wizard of Oz, and the curtain is being pulled back. She's not just ripping it back to expose him, but she will often feel, as she's telling her story, the threat that he's going to feel exposed.
"Ma'am, is your energy, your plan, to just go expose him?" [I might ask.]
"No, I just need to share this."
But the perpetrator over here, or the unhealthy person — a guy, in many cases — is going to feel exposed, which we already know. That's his stuff.

Lysa TerKeurst:
The perpetrator may not even know that what they're doing is emotional abuse, so it's not doing him any favors — or her, whoever the perpetrator is — any favors by not telling because not telling just perpetuates the behavior, and it might be helpful for them to be educated, like, that this is not acceptable. Maybe they saw it in their family of origin. Maybe they have done it for so long they didn't even realize it was wrong. They don't understand how hurtful it is, or they just are unaware, not aware enough to know, "Hey, this is really hurtful to this other person."
Not only, I think, does the feeling that this could be “disrespectful" contribute to the silencing of a woman who's being emotionally abused, but I think there's a fear, too, that if she opens up, nothing will change. And I think a lot of people who have been emotionally abused have experienced that because so many times, I think, they are told, "Well, just go home. Encourage him more. Love him more.”

Jim Cress:
“Pray for him.”

Lysa TerKeurst:
[Repeating] “Pray for him."

Jim Cress:
Wash, rinse and repeat. That's not going to do any good, but I get it.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Yes. Do we want to encourage our husband or our significant other or our family member, whoever's causing the emotional abuse? Yes, we want to encourage them. Yes, we want to speak life for them. Yes, we want to pray for them. Yes, yes and yes. All of those things are good. But when it is contributing to the silencing of a woman, it's taken to an extreme that is no longer good or healthy. So, I think part of this is the silencing of a woman. She doesn't know who to share it with, who's safe. If she fears nothing will change, then what's the point of sharing it anyhow?

Jim Cress:
It's the futility, right?

Lysa TerKeurst:
Mm-hmm.

Jim Cress:
Why bother? More on the safety part, real quick: If I feel that I share this with a person, and that person is not safe — we call it a “safe container,” a “safe place” — then let's just be real; it can, like a scorpion tail, come back and sting me because the person breaks that level of confidentiality. They'll just tell one person, and next thing you know, it circles back. But a lot of what I’ve found in my world that I live in … There's a lot of confidentiality breaking. The Scripture, I think, calls that “gossip,” by the way. When you share your story, you better be careful —

Joel Muddamalle:
Slander.

Jim Cress:
It's a hot mess if you share your story, any part of your story, with someone who just has to tell one other person; thus, they're not safe.

Joel Muddamalle:
I think one of the challenges with this, too, is that it is a reversal of the ideal of Eden. So, we're talking about silencing, and what do we find in Eden when God creates this garden? Well, ancient-world gardens were the places where kings resided; they were connected to the king's palace. What would you do when you went into the garden? You would talk and hang out with your family members. So, the very first picture of Adam and Eve in Eden is a beautiful picture of them walking and talking with God; that was normative. So, openness, transparency, active communication — that is the setting of human relationships. I think it's interesting that what the serpent does is actually introduce, I'm going to argue, emotional and spiritual abuse, and I think both things happen at the same time. So, I wrote a couple things on spiritual abuse, and I will get to it later, but I think it goes with emotional abuse as well. What is it? It's dishonest theological posturing.

Jim Cress:
Wow.

Joel Muddamalle:
It is goal-oriented toward establishing authority and wielding power. It's reframing what is real with an illusion of what they [the abuser] want to be real. It's lacking charity and humility and consideration. Jim, this is what I got from you: It's one-sided monologue, not two-sided dialogue. So, at the end of it, the individual is silenced, and it's actually a defaming, actually, of their image that they have of being in the image of God.

Lysa TerKeurst:
You know what's so fascinating to me? One of my favorite verses in the entire Bible is the very last verse of Genesis 2 before we get to Genesis 3, where the serpent comes on the scene. That verse says Adam and Eve were both naked and they felt no shame, and I think there is this beautiful picture. They felt no shame because they had no other opinion to contend with but the absolute love for one another and the absolute love of God. It wasn't just love; it was full acceptance as well, and that gets me to another reason why I think emotional abuse contributes to the silencing of a woman, and that is that there's a deep fear she won't be believed.

Jim Cress:
Mm-hmm, she believes, I won't be believed. You're going to think I'm making this up or I'm crazy. Thank you.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah, or, I'm the problem.

Jim Cress:
Yeah, or, I'm the problem. It's really about me. I have seen that. You’ve got to almost plow through that razor wire to even get to have a conversation with her — because [she says,] “No, you don't understand …” It's like tai-chi-ing all your moves away, like, "No, but I am the problem. What will people think? Maybe I'm ..." It's amazing just to get through that for her to even be able to hear.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Sadly, in talking with hundreds of women about this, I have heard that a common response that automatically makes her not feel believed is when [the other person] says, "Well, what did you do to cause him to say that? What did you do to cause him to treat you that way?" Or whatever.

Jim Cress:
That's verbal and emotional abuse — live, breaking news, on the spot — when someone says that, right?

Lysa TerKeurst:
Mm-hmm.

Jim Cress:
A lot of people don't realize they're continuing, perpetuating, but also having their own exacerbation of, verbal and emotional abuse.

Joel Muddamalle:
If it's a person in authority, an administrator —

Jim Cress:
Oh, man.

Joel Muddamalle:
— a leader, or whatever the case might be, now you add spiritual abuse on top of it. So, it's a cascading avalanche type of issue that is all affirming to a woman who’s being silenced: It's got to be me. I must be doing something wrong if the people who are authority figures in my life, people I trust … their initial reaction is "What did you do?" and not "Let me hear what's going on." Then it's devastating.

Lysa TerKeurst:
It is devastating and leads to the last fear that I'll put on the table. I'm sure there are a lot of others, but if I share that I'm being emotionally abused, if I can even get those words out, I fear that I will be abandoned. I fear I will be rejected. I fear that people will think less of me.

Jim Cress:
All those are possible.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Because I'm exposing —

Jim Cress:
All those are possible.

Lysa TerKeurst:
— what I should not be exposing about something that should just be a "private matter."

Joel Muddamalle:
What it feels like is silence is safer.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Mm-hmm. It does.

Jim Cress:
Experientially, in the moment, it is, I believe, well put by you, Joel: For a moment it is safer, but we stay as sick as our secrets in our silence. We really do.

Lysa TerKeurst:
We want to cover this. This is a very long-overdue conversation and I think it's important. So, if you have been experiencing this, I want you to lean in. If you feel like, I've never experienced this, I still want you to lean in because I guarantee you, someone you know, someone you love, someone you're in a relationship with, someone who is your friend, is experiencing this because it is a pervasive problem. We want to have you just become more aware of it and give you vocabulary around what's really happening and then also what we can do about it. As we discuss this very sensitive topic, we do want to operate with discretion, right? We want to be careful.

Jim Cress:
Mm-hmm.

Lysa TerKeurst:
We want to operate with discretion, but we don't want to perpetuate deceit.

Jim Cress:
Well said.

Lysa TerKeurst:
There is deceit around the silencing of a woman, and, Joel, you've already mentioned that as well. I also want to say that there's a big difference between privacy and secrecy. I do think that sometimes you don't want to invite the weight of public opinion into your very private pain. I do think also if actions have been elevated to the form where you are not just in a difficult relationship but — as my friend Leslie Vernick says — "a destructive relationship," where there's smoke, there is a fire. And it's time to sound the alarm. We don't want a red flag to have to burn all the way to the ground before we tilt our head and go, "Huh, it's kind of red," right?

Jim Cress:
Yeah.

Lysa TerKeurst:
So, if there's even a hint of emotional abuse, I think it's time to get a licensed professional counselor involved, and if you don't have a licensed professional counselor then someone else in your life who is trained specifically on how to recognize emotional abuse. And certainly, listening to this podcast is important. As we go into this, operating in privacy but not perpetuating secrecy, here's what I mean by that: We don't want to invite public opinion, so maybe don't go share on social media what you're experiencing and ask the whole world, "Is this emotional abuse?" So, we don't want to invite public opinion into the private pain, but we do have to recognize that privacy is for the sake of healing.

So, if we are in a situation and the other person is repentant and they're humble and they want this pattern of behavior to be addressed, then hold it private, and the two of you work on it and get a trained person involved, and then that's fine to hold it private. That's not being silenced. But what I see more often is that women feel like they are being forced to keep secrets, and secrets are for the purpose of hiding, not for healing. Secrets actually perpetuate the problem because what is kept in the dark stays in the dark. I've also heard the expression … This would be a perpetrator speaking to a victim: "Who would want to be in a relationship with someone who shares their deepest, darkest secrets?" So that's the perpetrator saying, "In order to be in good standing in this relationship, we need to hold this private." I think that's what they're trying to say, but basically [what they’re really saying is], "You need to keep my deep, dark secrets." My response to that is, "Why do you want to be in a relationship with someone who has deep, dark secrets?" Right?

Jim Cress:
Absolutely.

Lysa TerKeurst:
But I've also seen that statement thrown out and other people around go, "Yeah. Yeah. I don't want to be in a relationship with someone who shares my secrets, and I don't want to be a relationship with someone that I feel would just go out and expose me." Right?

Jim Cress:
Mm-hmm.

Lysa TerKeurst:
They're more concerned about the person, the victim, telling the truth and getting help than they are about the person who has the deep, dark secrets. So, I think all of this contributes to the silencing of a woman, especially in terms of emotional abuse. What do we do about it,
Jim? I loved when we were processing this and you said, "First of all, we don't want to take our response to an extreme." So, we don't want to take, like, "OK, we've gotten to the place where we don't want to be silenced about the emotional abuse we're experiencing …" But you made a great point. We don't want to immediately go from being absolutely quiet about it to suddenly swinging the pendulum in the other direction and taking our voicing of it to such an extreme.

Jim Cress:
Well, we can be — Lord knows, I can be — creatures of extremes. So, I will have no voice or I will have co-signed, literally co-signed, someone's unhealthy treatment of me. I read a book, the podcast, a podcast like this one, and I get some insight, which is good insight, and I take this beach ball that proverbially I've held underwater … [To Lysa:] And you know I have this in my office; I have a beach ball and I have a hand grenade. It's been gutted, but it's a real hand grenade. And I hold [the beach ball] underwater and finally I begin to go, "Yeah, I need to say something here," and I come out like a grenade. I do things and I have this massive “vulnerability hangover” later, which means I just went out and said all the stuff and I'm, like, not emotionally self-regulated during that time. I understand that.

So, the idea of being able to — slowly being able to — find a safe person and begin at 30,000 feet and say, "I'd like to tell you here's what I'm experiencing …" versus coming out, moving from being quiet like a mouse and then getting a megaphone, I understand why that's the danger. It goes quick, where I finally found my voice and I’ve got to proclaim it from the rooftops. You'll regret that, especially if you're doing that in such a way that you have a bit of vengeance. I've seen that. I mean [if you’re saying], "I want to get somebody." You're going to regret that later if you have integrity, I think.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Besides just the knowledge of, OK, we want to find our voice, but we don't want to go from mouse to megaphone …

Jim Cress:
Right.

Lysa TerKeurst:
So, what does that middle ground look like?

Jim Cress:
What I literally experienced … What I do with people, if I have a chance to work with them, is to have them come in, and I say, "I would like to listen.” So, I know I'm a safe person as a licensed professional counselor and licensed clinical mental health counselor; I am bound by confidentiality, and they know it. So, I say, "Let me hear your story." To use my words and the vernacular, I don't egg them on: "Yeah, come on. Wow. Woo." I need to stay, act adult — but like a professional on one level — and say the three words I use: "Tell me more." So, I'm trying to slowly invite them to put out their data on the table, and because we've talked so much about fact and impact, I'll say, "OK, let's stop for a moment. Here's the fact; this is what happened to you. Let's talk for a moment. What's the impact?" I'm already slowing them down, trying to. "What do you think that did to you? Remember, the same sun that hardens clay softens butter. What do you think that did to you?"

Then I'll say, "Let's just take a thought — just a thought, gently — and go … Where might you be in your family of origin story? Naming, not blaming. Where are you?" We’ve said [on this podcast] if it's hysterical, often it could be historical. "Did this ever happen to you before?" I leave right there, and we talked about this in the last podcast, about Jesus and the woman at the well. He's deep into the narrative. He could have said, "Listen, I'm going to tell you right now, you're sleeping with dudes." I just feel Him lean back and say [instead], "Tell me about your husband.” Now, that's a wise counselor. That's a wise friend that doesn't just go for the jugular right away. So, I try to draw them out and I'm trying to invite them to emotional self-regulation so that they literally, in this amygdala part of their brain where trauma is, can slow themselves down, regulate and say, "This is what happened."

I use the H.U.B. It's not a technique — it's true: H.U.B. "I hear you, man, and I understand you" or "I'm trying to understand you," and B is "I believe you, and I believe in you" because most people just stop believing. They're going to think, "Whoa, boy," but I'm working, and you, as a good friend watching and tuning in and listening today, can help your friends as iron sharpens iron. You can help them regulate. Let's just remember the Word of God in Proverbs 15:1, "A gentle answer turns away wrath, [but a harsh word stirs up] anger" (NIV) — double hermeneutic. As I get gentle with you, it's going to lower my anger. Whoa, it's softened, and it will help you soften, but harsh words — "come on, you ought to get it, I can't believe he did that" — stir up my anger and will stir up yours. That is one of the most powerful, applicable verses for talking about emotional and spiritual abuse.

Lysa TerKeurst:
I like what you said there, Jim, about facts and impact, because sometimes the facts get a little confusing.

Jim Cress:
Yeah.

Lysa TerKeurst:
[We ask:] Well, does that qualify as emotional abuse? Does this qualify as emotional abuse? I don't know. I don't know. So, I think with the facts, we have to look at the spectrum of severity and the spectrum —

Jim Cress:
That's true.

Lysa TerKeurst:
— of occurrence, so that's important. But I think a bigger thing that I think gets left out of the conversation is the impact. I think it's easier to identify emotional abuse when you consider the impact that it has had on the person experiencing the fact.

Jim Cress:
We're back to the bruised hand. We can see the coloration, and [like] Joel’s excellent point that he elaborated on: That is the impact. It gets harder to say, "What is the impact to my soul?" I think it just takes some time. Proverbs 20:5 says the purposes in all of our hearts are deep water, so we must go down deep to draw them out. It's harder to see that emotional and spiritual impact.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Joel, I want to get to you, but before we do, Jim, there were three Gs that I found really helpful when you were talking about how, OK, we don't want to be like a mouse, but we don't want to swing it over to a megaphone. That was: grovel, grandstand and then grounded is in the middle. So, do you want to just touch on those three Gs?

Jim Cress:
Yeah, pretty simple. I just sat with someone one day a number of years ago and I said, "You know, you don't want to do this." [To God:] Thank You, seriously, Holy Spirit, for being my Teacher. The Holy Spirit gave it to me, and I said [to the person], "You're in a relationship; you don't want to grovel." That's begging and walking on eggshells. If you walk on eggshells, the relationship and integrity are over for the moment. Real integrity in a relationship cannot happen, real connection, if somebody's walking on eggshells. Don't grovel: "Please, is there any way …? Would you just hear me?" Even the voice-box tightens.

The other extreme is, "Well, fine. I won't grovel. I'm going to grandstand." I had a person once — no kidding — say to me, word for word, "I finally got your point. I stopped walking on eggshells and I started stomping on eggshells all over my spouse. He missed the point.” Don't grovel or beg, but don't grandstand, like, "I'll just get big, and here's my line in the sand. I dare you to cross it.” I see people do that.

Lysa TerKeurst:
And start throwing emotional abuse back.

Jim Cress:
Oh, right there. [Quoting The Silence of the Lambs:] “Quid pro quo, Clarice.” It's like bam, bam, bam. Then to be grounded, that is to be that healthy adult self. You want to love well. First Corinthians 13 says [paraphrasing], “When I was a child, I've gone and I acted like a child thought and reasoned.” I love that — “reasoned.” So, I rationalized like a child, but when I became an adult — no therapist, no Bible teacher, no theologian for a moment — I put away childish things. So that piece is to be grounded and to say, "Is somebody going to come at me and then I just react? Or do I want to learn to take a breath, lean back and respond, not react?" It will change over time. You say, "Man, I feel more like an adult. I'm responding." They came in and pressed buttons, but you don't have to show up to every drama you're invited to. You just don't. You get popcorn and a Coke and say, "I might show up to this one." No. No.

Lysa TerKeurst:
I think that's so good, and I think part of staying grounded is to realize you're empowered to call out hurt without expressing and creating more hurt.

Jim Cress:
Well stated.

Lysa TerKeurst:
So, we don't want to grovel, beg that person to change when they be may be unwilling or incapable of changing, right?

Jim Cress:
Mm-hmm.

Lysa TerKeurst:
We don't want to grandstand, throw abuse back at that person. We want to be grounded in the middle, find our voice appropriately and get help because, ultimately, we want the emotional abuse to end. It cannot —

Jim Cress:
[To Lysa:] Did you see that, by the way, under the third G of being grounded? Did you just see what's right below it, that fourth G that snuck in on us? You know what it is.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Yes, I do. Grief.

Jim Cress:
We talked about that. We've talked about in our webinars you and I have been doing and I've been doing with Joel. It’s the grief. To have all good, healthy boundaries and self-care requires grief. [You might say,] “What do you mean?” If I have this boundary, this person may talk about me. They may blast me on social media, stop liking my posts, or they may divorce me or leave me. So, the idea of staying in that grounded place usually, I think, will require grief. You may not see it coming yet, but the idea is it will cost you something to stay grounded. Always does.

Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah. To connect these things theologically, I remember when you were talking about this for the first time, Jim, some lights were going off in my mind and I was thinking of these responses with our identity as image bearers of God. So, here's what happens when you grovel — what you're doing is you're participating in being subhuman. We're actually denying the image of God. So, a woman who goes into a position of silence or groveling, whatever it might be, is actually denying her image that she rightly bears in God. Grandstanding, now, is the opposite. It is being superior or akin to being like God.

So, if groveling is being subpar, subimage, then grandstanding is actually elevating yourself above the image that was given to you, that was granted to you. It's a position of superiority. So being grounded is actually rightly living out the reality of being in the likeness and image of God. So, then I'm going to connect the fourth one. Well, how do you do this? Grief, that's what you just described. Grief is the counterbalance. It's the protection for us to keep us from falling too deep into groveling or elevating too high into grandstanding. Grief taps into humility, and humility is what grounds us, and I think that's so important. I just want to, just from another standpoint … When we hear silence, I want us to be careful that we don't equate silence with a one-dimensional [definition like] “not talking,” right?

Jim Cress:
Exactly.

Joel Muddamalle:
Because actually —

Jim Cress:
As in, wisdom? No, I don't know if that's what you mean. There's a place not to talk.

Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah. So, there's a place of meditation, and we'll get to that, but I'm also thinking about the garden of Eden when the first temptation takes place with the serpent. The serpent is so deceitful because the serpent doesn't just squash the conversation; the serpent actually reframes, re-alters. It brings in theological dishonesty. What happens is a silencing through suppression. So, the woman is able to speak, but the irony is that Adam's on silent the whole time. That's the greatest irony of this entire thing, but there's a suppression.

So, if you are in a position of suppression where you're being silenced or you're being almost manipulated, this is the other danger if you're being manipulated and almost led with the breadcrumbs down a certain way to think, to act, to feel a certain way; that is the type of suppression of your identity, of who you are as a human being, that takes away that rightful expression of being able to be honest and transparent with what you're feeling and what you're doing. So, here's the other question: Well, why do I deserve a voice, theologically? I don't know if there's anybody thinking, Why do I even deserve —

Jim Cress:
You can count on that. I've heard that a myriad of times. "Do I even get to speak? Should I? Do I have the right?"

Joel Muddamalle:
My answer is really simple: Because you're a daughter of the King.

Jim Cress:
Come on.

Joel Muddamalle:
Because you're a son of the King. Because you're made in the likeness and the image of the King. Now, here's the interesting thing about being royalty. Being royalty gives you incredible privilege, incredible honor, and there's also simultaneous massive responsibility. So, we have the opportunity and we're being welcomed into a conversation, and the action of denying that and stripping that away from you is an offense. This is just me talking at this point. It is an offense against the royal image that you bear.

Jim Cress:
I love that.

Lysa TerKeurst:
OK, I'm going to do … I'm going to say statements, and I want you to say this is true or this is false. OK?

Jim Cress:
Is this a contest between Joel and me?

Lysa TerKeurst:
Not a contest, no.

Jim Cress:
Just to see who wins? Keep score.

Lysa TerKeurst:
I'm only going to ask a couple of these, but I think it's important. Joel, we'll make you go first. Theologically speaking, if someone is experiencing emotional abuse and they're feeling silenced in that emotional abuse, will it get better on its own?

Joel Muddamalle:
Absolutely not.

Lysa TerKeurst:

Jim, from a therapeutic standpoint, if I am just quiet about this emotional abuse and I allow myself to be silenced, then will it get better on its own?

Jim Cress:
No, it’s carbon monoxide. It's colorless, odorless, tasteless gas and you will die.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Mm-hmm. OK. Let me throw out another one. If I stay quiet about this issue, then eventually the other person is going to have this great revelation that what they're doing is wrong and immediately know how to repair this hurt that they have caused me.

Joel Muddamalle:
The theologian in me is going to have to nuance this a little bit. Is it possible? Well, sure. The Holy Spirit can do anything at any time. Is it probable? No.

Lysa TerKeurst:
OK. Good answer.

Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah. I think human wisdom and godly wisdom requires us to not live in the fairytale land of the possibility when we have the plausibility, the actual ability, to step into what is necessary in order to take action.

Lysa TerKeurst:
So, Jim, I'm going to ask you the same question.

Jim Cress:
Please.

Lysa TerKeurst:
I'm going to change it just a little bit. If [someone is] doing things that qualify as or are considered emotional abuse, if there is this pattern of behavior, will the perpetrator or the abuser — even if they recognize finally that what they're doing is wrong — on their own know how to repair this?

Jim Cress:
You nuanced that question, and I love that because Jesus looked upon them with compassion. I want to look at them with a long, bony finger. I like how you asked that, and that is — it's like Psalm 51. I take all my people to that if they'll go, and that's a broken and contrite heart and spirit. But I like to invite them. I'm Ezekiel the watchman on the wall; I warn, and then my hands are off. If they're there and I'm saying, "Do you want to change?" Watch: "Are you willing to change? Are you willing to call it this?"
"I don't know," [says the person.]
“Wait. Take a step back. Are you willing to be willing to call it emotional abuse and verbal abuse?"
"Maybe."
At “Are you willing to be willing?" usually someone will go, "Yeah, I can see that that ... "
"Have you ever been emotionally abused yourself? Let's just play with the term."
They say, "Yeah, I have." Then I believe they can move forward.
It's a whole operating system for many that they have to change, and it's a “buy one, get one free.” Listen, when you verbally and emotionally abuse another person, it's going to come right back on you. Your others-centered contempt for other people, like the Word of God is telling us in John, [means] you're a murderer in your heart if you hate someone, [and if] you're a murderer in your heart, it will always come out of your own self-hatred and self-contempt. That's been proven. Books are written on it, so that's proven. If they want to change and are willing to, here's what it's going to take a lot of times: change in life, in the Christian life.

This is a direct old Christian quote. "The Christian life in real change has often not been tried and found difficult. The truth is the Christian life and real change has been found difficult and left untried.” The rich, young ruler [had this attitude]: "I'm all learned. I want to change, Jimbo. I'll do anything." [Jesus says,] "Here's what it will cost you. You can't do it on your own operating system." And he went away sad. I give him a break. The rich, young ruler said, "I'm all in. I want help." People come to us for help, theological help, counseling help, what have you, saying, “I want to change.” Here's what it will cost you to do that. Back to grief … and often people just say, "It costs me too much. I don't have to go through all that. I don't want to look at my family story. I'm out of that."

Lysa TerKeurst:
So, to someone who is being emotionally abused: It's not going to get better on its own. Even if the perpetrator says, "OK, I realize this is wrong," chances are, they are going to need to be theologically discipled —

Joel Muddamalle:
Absolutely.

Jim Cress:
Absolutely.

Lysa TerKeurst:
— to know how to take healthier steps, and probably both discipled in the spiritual sense and equipped in the emotionally healthy sense to know even what an emotionally healthy relationship looks like … and certainly the steps that they're going to need to take to repair the situation that they're currently in with that relationship.

Joel Muddamalle:
Discipleship is a process. I know, Jim, you're going to have a lot to say about this, but —

Jim Cress:
Just “amen.” Yeah.

Joel Muddamalle:
— as long as it took you to get into this mess, it is an unhealthy reality or perspective to think that with a snapped finger, you're going to get yourself out and you're going to live in healthy patterns, you're going to create healthy rhythms. It takes work and it takes effort and it takes the family of God that comes alongside of you to encourage you. It takes a deep sense of humility to recognize that there is some clinical license, like therapeutic work, that is absolutely necessary. So, we've got to be careful not to reduce this thing down to it being this quick fix. It takes work and it takes time, and there are consequences that are all around it, and we've got to be able to deal with those.

Lysa TerKeurst:
In the new book that I have called Good Boundaries and Goodbyes, which releases in November of 2022 — depending on whenever you're listening to this, it may already be out — I talk a lot about realizing you need to have this notion that you're not powerless or stuck in this. Because if an emotionally abused woman or an emotionally abused person hears that it's not going to get better on its own and that this other person is going to need to own it and take the necessary steps, their mind may automatically go, What if they're incapable or unwilling to take those steps? Now what? Because if they're unwilling or incapable, now I feel powerless again. So, that's where we have to realize that where there is the presence of this kind of chaos, it usually means there is a lack of boundaries, and you can be empowered to have healthy boundaries.

That does not mean that you put a boundary on this other person to try to force them to change, but rather you recognize: I need to boundary myself to protect myself from the emotional abuse that I may be experiencing. In doing that, you may not be able to get this other person to stop doing what they're doing; therefore, you need to reduce the access that they have [to you] so that the impact of their continued pattern of behavior will not devastate you. So, I would encourage you that boundaries are an important part of this discussion. We're not going to unpack those today because we just don't have time, but that is an additional resource I think you would find very helpful.

I want to end today —What are the next steps if you do feel like, because of emotional abuse, you have been silenced? I'm going to give a couple and then you guys [Joel and
Jim] can take it wherever you want to go with it, and realize we're running short on time. OK?

So, first, decide what's really happening to you. Is this a typical difficulty in a relationship? Because all relationships experience difficulties. Is this something that [the other person is] willing and capable of talking about? Are they receptive to being open to thoughts that you want to share? There's a big difference between a difficult situation in a relationship and a destructive situation in a relationship. Destructive means you are losing the best of who you are. You're being diminished. You are being harmed in the emotional response even that your body is having to this, so you've got to be honest. The other thing I would recommend as a next step is to name the problem. It's important to name the problem. If we don't name the problem, then we may not be able to work on the problem —

Jim Cress:
That's right.

Lysa TerKeurst:
— or we may work on the wrong problem. We may take such ownership of this happening that we think we are the problem. We may suddenly think, Well, I just need to be more humble. Or, I need to be more long-suffering. Or, I need to just forgive 70 times seven. We do need to forgive 70 times seven times, but Jesus — knowing the nature and the nurture of Jesus, watching and reading about Him and how He operated in the context of human relationships — never perpetuated abuse. He always had sympathy for the oppressed or the ones being harmed. So, when Jesus says "forgive 70 times seven," I believe that Jesus is saying, "Create enough distance between you and that other person that if their continued pattern of behavior that is hurting you never stops, you can forgive from a distance and not be destroyed in the process." So, anything that you guys [Joel and Jim] would like to add as next steps for someone listening and thinking, I identify with this and I need to know what to do about it?

Joel Muddamalle:
If you're in the middle of it, I would just ask you, as I've already said, to remind yourself that you are worthy of the voice that God gave you.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Mm-hmm. Thank you, Joel.

Jim Cress:
In the show notes will be the reference of a dear mutual friend, Leslie Vernick. I would encourage you to go on social media — she has a wonderful presence, so a lot of free material. She is my go-to person when it comes to emotionally abusive and destructive relationships on any level. She's godly, she's biblical, and if you will go there … We talked about safety earlier, and this is an incredibly safe, wise woman who will help guide you through it. Leslie Vernick and that information will be in the show notes.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Yes, and I have turned to Leslie for so many resources and am so grateful for the ministry and the coaching that she has to take what we've started today and make it even more personally applicable for what you're walking through. Jim, thank you so much.

Jim Cress:
My pleasure.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Thanks not only for what you've contributed to this conversation, but it's no secret that you are my personal therapist, counselor, all-things-healing guru, and I am so grateful for you.

Joel, the number of hours that we have processed this very topic, sitting around tables, from a theological standpoint … I'm so grateful for what you've added today and so grateful for what you've given me in my own personal healing journey.

Jim Cress:
We're grateful for you too.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Thank you.

Joel Muddamalle:
Amen.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Thank you. On that note, we'll say goodbye until next time.