Therapy and Theology

Lysa TerKeurst:

This is Lysa TerKeurst, and you're listening to Therapy & Theology, where we help you work through what you walk through.

Shae Hill:

Hey, friend, thanks for tuning in to the Therapy & Theology podcast today. My name is Shae Hill, and I'm so happy to be with you. We are mixing things up a little bit. Usually we're bringing you a whole season of content that trickles out over a couple of weeks. But today we have a standalone special bonus episode from Lysa, Jim and Joel. This conversation was inspired by Dr. Joel Muddamalle's new book, The Hidden Peace: Finding True Security, Strength, and Confidence Through Humility, which I'm super excited to tell you more about after the show. But for now, no more delay. Let's dive in.

Lysa TerKeurst:

Welcome to Therapy & Theology. I'm Lysa TerKeurst with Jim Cress and Dr. Joel Muddamalle. Sometimes when we're sitting around doing these Therapy & Theology recordings, we often have some of our best conversations after the cameras stop rolling.

Jim Cress:

We do.

Lysa TerKeurst:

And then we're like, "Wait a minute, we should really talk about that." This is where this episode came from, and I'm really excited because you have written a book, The Hidden Peace, which I think you're going to dive into a little bit, but really addressing the issue of pride and our need for humility.

But sometimes we just get it wrong. I don't think anybody ever wakes up in their life and goes, "You know what? Today I think I'm going to make some choices that will just completely blow up my life and destroy my family." I just don't know that we have that thought. Where does it really start, Joel?

Joel Muddamalle:

The place that, Lysa, you, I and Jim I feel like we always go to is what? The story of the Garden of Eden.

Jim Cress:

Eden.

Joel Muddamalle:

And sometimes I wonder that morning that Eve wakes up, and I guess we're assuming that it's morning, but when she wakes up, is she like, "Today is the day."

Jim Cress:

I'm going to blow this thing up.

Joel Muddamalle:

With Adam right next to me, I'm going to be like, "Yes, today we're going to fall into the deception of the serpent and his idea." I don't think that's what happened. And in the same way, I think one of the really challenging things that we have today is a concept that we conceptually we know is a bad thing, we're like, "Pride is probably not something that we should pursue and cultivate in our lives." And yet it's also incredibly alluring. There's something about it that exalts ourselves and makes us happy. And the thing that fascinates me about the story of the Garden of Eden is that the serpent steps in and presents a curious thought to Eve. And when he presents that curious thought to Eve, Eve actually has an opportunity there to exercise curiosity but within the context of limits.

Because God had already given her and Adam that the limitations ... do all this but don't do this. And the question is, at the core of it, why does she entertain this conversation? Why does she keep in dialogue? Why does she then invite Adam into it? And at the core, underneath all of this is the presence of what I've often referred to as hidden pride. And hidden pride is so scary because hidden pride often presents itself as something very beautiful, but on the inside, it's actually corrupt.

Lysa TerKeurst:

I think this is the tricky thing about pride is that often if you're struggling with pride, you don't know it, or even worse, you'll say, "I'm not prideful."

Jim Cress:

No, that's not it.

Lysa TerKeurst:

And when you talk about hidden pride, I'm like, "OK, then how are we supposed to know? What if I'm secretly really struggling with pride? What if I've got all this hidden pride in my life? What do I need to do about it, and how do I recognize it?"

Joel Muddamalle:

Absolutely. Let's do a little bit of a thought exercise and experiment. Have you guys heard of this phrase: the seven deadly sins?

Jim Cress:

Sure.

Lysa TerKeurst:

Yes.

Joel Muddamalle:

I'm putting you a little bit on the spot. What are the seven deadly sins?

Lysa TerKeurst:

Gluttony.

Joel Muddamalle:

That's one.

Jim Cress:

Lust, pride to life.

Lysa TerKeurst:

Just pride.

Joel Muddamalle:

That's one of them. There's greed, there's sloth, there's wrath, [and] there's envy. But here's the interesting thing. If you inverted each of these, you would actually find, we talked about the spectrum of severity, that at the core of each of these is actually something that could be beautiful. Lust is what?

Jim Cress:

Desire.

Lysa TerKeurst:

Being attracted to the one person that God intends for you to have as your husband or your wife.
Joel Muddamalle: And then, if you have somebody, Jim, that comes into a counseling session and goes, "I'm struggling with lust," what's your response to that?

Jim Cress:

You want the truth?

Joel Muddamalle:

Oh yeah.

Jim Cress:

I take him to the Greek [non-English word], which is an empty cup. It's something empty. Temptation fills the emptiness of the cup. Lust tries to fill the emptiness of the cup. I need to let them see that and say, "What's the emptiness?" And they think their emptiness is their enemy. And I say, "No, your emptiness is not the enemy. Your demand to fill the emptiness apart from God's ways — that is the enemy."

Joel Muddamalle:

Absolutely. This is what pride is consistently doing to us. Pride is suggesting to us that the good thing that God has for us can actually become the ultimate thing. And when that thing becomes the ultimate thing, it actually becomes an idolatrous thing.

Jim Cress:

Boom, boom, boom.

Joel Muddamalle:

Look at lust. I want to go back to that. There's something beautiful that God created of men and women.

Jim Cress:

Sure.

Joel Muddamalle:

And there's one thing to be like, "He's handsome," or "She's beautiful," but pride moves you from this place of "there's beauty" to a place of obsession.

Jim Cress:

And objectification that you're just an object for me to devour.

Joel Muddamalle:

Gluttony. Food is a great thing. I enjoy good food.

Jim Cress:

We know that about you, Joel.

Joel Muddamalle:

Do you really?

Jim Cress:

Yes. You actually enjoy bad food sometimes too.

Lysa TerKeurst:

God made us to consume food. He did not make food to consume us.

Joel Muddamalle:

Literally, you guys, this is so wild. I hired a nutritionist. You guys don't even know this.

Jim Cress:

You looking marvelous over there.

Joel Muddamalle:

I hired a nutritionist about over a month ago, and we had a two-hour-long conversation, and it was one of the most brilliant conversations I've ever had. I've always felt like I either do my workout really well and I'm horrible with my food, or I do my food really well and I'm horrible with my working out. And food has always been the kryptonite for me.

Jim Cress:

You can't outwork a bad diet.

Joel Muddamalle:

And what my nutritionist said is actually so fascinating. He goes, "Joel, your fundamental relationship with how you relate to food has to change."

Jim Cress:

That's bottom line.

Joel Muddamalle:

I come to food actually for a source of emotional, physical, and in a way spiritual satisfaction. And food actually has a hold over me versus my relationship with food is actually, no, it's giving me health. There's nutrition to it, and it's a total different category. And these types of things that I think, and we can move on, greed, having financial stability is a good thing.

But when financial stability becomes the ultimate thing in your life, and now you move from that into becoming obsessive of gaining wrath and all these things, there's something about actually justice that we should desire. Justice is a good thing. But when you go from justice to revenge or justice to wrath, these are all detrimental things. And going earlier to our conversation and how you started, Lysa, nobody ever wakes up, I don't think, one day like you just said and says ... But what they do, just like Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden and just like this big question that we have to just process ourselves, is what is the curious thought that we're entertaining in our lives, that if we cultivate that, if we allow that thing to flourish, it's actually going to become incredibly deceptive and destructive things in our lives?

Jim, I found a really fascinating Greek word. I know you love Greek, and it's [non-English word] and what [non-English word] we can probably hear the root of that from?

Jim Cress:

Either narcotic or narcissism.

Joel Muddamalle:

And both apply in this situation. This is so fascinating. [Foreign language] actually has to do with growing numb over a period of time ... growing numb over a period of time. What pride I think is doing to us, it's actually inviting us into a type of numb life. And it's happening over a period of time.

Lysa TerKeurst:

Joel, it makes me think of this verse ... I can't remember. It might be in Micah where it says, "O man, what does God require?"

Joel Muddamalle:

Micah 6:8.

Jim Cress:

Micah 6:8.

Lysa TerKeurst:

And it says to act justly.

Jim Cress:

Love mercy.

Lysa TerKeurst:

To love mercy and walk humbly with our God. And I think walking humbly with our God is a really important thing here.

Joel Muddamalle:

Absolutely. And that it's the humility piece that actually brings out the love and the justice and the mercy. We've identified what is pride doing: Pride is promising us clarity, and it's leading us into chaos and confusion. What is the gift of humility? The gift of humility is actually the gift of self-awareness where we can actually see ourself rightly, that we can be rightly ordered. There's a famous quote in saying it's historically attributed to C.S Lewis, "Humility isn't thinking less of yourself; it's thinking of yourself less often." Just a side note, y’all, always dangerous to disagree with C.S Lewis. I'm not going to disagree with Lewis, but I'm going to suggest this. I actually don't think biblical humility starts with the self. Biblical humility, first and foremost, starts with God.

Jim Cress:

I like that.

Joel Muddamalle:

And if I can know who God is, then I can know who I am. And if I know who God is and I know who I am, made in the likeness and image of God, then I can know how I ought to rightly relate to other people who are made in the likeness and image of God. And notice what happens here. First, I have peace with God. Now if I have peace with God, I've got peace internally. And if I've got peace internally, I'm actually powerfully equipped to pursue peace with other people. And this is what humility is doing. Humility is regaining for us the gift of self-awareness.

Lysa TerKeurst:

I think one of the most peaceful places that I can ever put myself in is just on my face before the Lord and listening to praise songs and participating in praise songs and getting my face into God's Word because when we know God's Word, we can better discern His will. But it requires that posture of humility, that posture of acknowledging our dependence on Him. The Lord wants us on our face before Him, and there's two pathways to get there. I think it's either the pathway of humiliation or the pathway of humility. The only difference is one chooses to bow low while the other trips and falls there, but we both wind up on our face before the Lord.

And I think the choice here is do we pursue humility in absolute dependence on God, which will give us the peace that passes all understanding? Or do we go our own way and think, Yeah, good suggestions, God, but I've got it from here? And we rise up in pride and put ourselves in that position where we're striving so hard there's no peace in that.

Joel Muddamalle:

Exactly.

Lysa TerKeurst:

And where everything depends on us. No human heart was made to carry the weight of figuring out life on their own. And yet so many of us work our emotions into a tangled fray and our fingers to the bone trying to do just that.

Joel Muddamalle:

Exactly. I know, Jim, when I was working and really researching and writing The Hidden Peace, one of the big questions that kept coming up was: Is there ever an appropriate time to have pride? And is humility always going to leave me in a place of weakness and being subjugated and people are going to walk all over me? I'm curious, from a therapeutic standpoint, how should we be thinking about pride? Is there any positive side to pride, or is it all just purely negative?

Jim Cress:

This is a bit of a stretch, but you and I can meet for dinner and then we can have meat at dinner. Words are important. I'm very proud of my grandchildren. If they get a grade, they draw me a picture. Granddaddy's so proud of you ... my kids and their livelihood and business, and some good news comes, which happened recently. I was really proud of you. I like to say that, "I'm really proud of you," and you know where I go, God, at the baptism and then at the Mount of Transfiguration, the ultimate Father: "This is my boy. This is my son. That's my boy there. That's my boy. This is my son who ... whom I love." I'll say it to the entire world: "I love my son and in who I am."

Please, you say that's a stretch, but I could see, “That's my son and I'm proud of him.” There's a level that I'm saying, "I'm really proud of you." You know what? When I do my work, we all do our work, I want to say Lysa finishes a book, you finish a book, say, "I'm really proud of myself. I really did a good job. I want to take, listen, pride in my work."

I think that's a good use of the word and I who did not write the future bestselling book that you've written seriously. But inside, I'm aware of self-awareness that is different than me taking that Lysa's taught us here about the severity and the spectrum ... and all that is to say, "I'm so proud of my kids." And sometimes every now and then not quite. I can get in the flesh and want to Sharpie out the people that says, "My kid is on the honor roll at so-and-so school," I'm like, "OK." And I can get, I don't think that, but there's a sense that I don't know when the tipping point is. Often I know it for me, I'll think, "That's unhealthy pride. Now you're bragging to everybody look what your kids are doing," or whatever else. I just want the awareness. But there are times I'm even proud of me.

I say, "Jimbo, you did a good job today. You helped some people." But that's not an unhealthy pride. May I ask a question, follow it back to the author? I'm big on with people about the action that I'm not worried about people being humble. He or she's a humble person. I see so much in the text and people quote Philippians, they quote, help me here, in Peter, "Casting all your cares on Him and He cares on you," which is a part of while you're doing the command, which is humble yourself and what I see is, and I work with people from a therapeutic side, which I'm a biblical counselor too, and saying, "Where are you bowing the knee? Where are you humbling yourself?" Versus "I think I'm humble today."

But you've written the book on it. How much action is in this idea that I'm humbling myself; I'm just not a humble person?

Joel Muddamalle:

That's good. One of the more fascinating things about this whole thing was actually an understanding of humanity's natural state in creation. Think about this, that God, this is the word picture to think about God, the King of the cosmos, unbended knee, this is how I envision it, comes down onto earth, bends down from the dust, from the ground, which is actually from the original root words where we get the word “humility” from hummus and from the Latin word as well in Hebrew [non-English word]. But He actually creates humanity. And then think about this ... fascinating!

He breathes the breath of life into Adam and Eve. He creates them. He forms them. And the text in Genesis 2:15 and 16, it says that then God lifts them. He places them in Eden. Now the question is, where is Eden? Eden is actually on a mountaintop. How do Adam and Eve get from the lowliness of the earth to the heights of a mountaintop? Nothing because of their own doing, but everything because of what God has done. God has taken their humble status and their posture and has exalted them and lifted them up. They're passive participants. And the beauty of it is the natural state of Adam and Eve in Eden was a posture of humility.

Humanity's natural posture, the way that God has created us is actually a posture of humility. And what pride is actually doing to us, it's robbing us of our humanity. The more that we practice pride and we step into that, it's actually stripping us of our humanity. When we practice humility, we're actually regaining our humanity. We're returning to the ideal of Eden.

At least, one of the things that I think is so fascinating about you, and I'm going to say this, you won't ever say this about yourself, is you've written 30 books, multiple New York Times bestselling books. I know the next book that you are working on is a book on trust. And we're so excited about that. And yet you are, and, Jim, I think you can agree with it and everybody who's in our room just recording right now would say this about you, you're one of the most grounded people that I know. What has been the thing in your life that has kept you grounded throughout what maybe other people would be like, "Wow, that is immense success"? What has just kept you grounded in this process?

Jim Cress:

You're so good.

Lysa TerKeurst:

Thank you for your kind words.

Jim Cress:

I agree by the way.

Lysa TerKeurst:

This was not part of the script.

Jim Cress:

It is now.

Lysa TerKeurst:

Thank you. I would say from a spiritual standpoint, I think about this often. I think when we get to heaven, I think we're going to be very surprised at what matters most. I think what appears very big and important here on earth is actually going to be pretty small in heaven. And I think what appears maybe small here on earth could possibly be some of the most significant things in heaven.

I picture one day, and I hope that this conversation is had between me and the Lord, I hope I do hear, "Well done, good and faithful servant," but I don't think it's going to be because of what I did. I don't think it's going to be because "Wow, we see you wrote a lot of books. Wow, you stood on some big stages." I don't think that's it; it's going to be more like, "Hey, remember that random Tuesday where you were in the grocery store and you saw this mom and she was by herself? Maybe she was even a single mom, and her kids were just all around her, and other people were judging her because her kids were sort of losing it, and you could just see the weight of that situation on her. And remember when you just walked up to her and you said, ‘Hey, you are doing better than you think you are. Bad moments don't make bad moms.’ And remember when you did that? Well done. Well done."

What keeps me grounded is that perspective from a spiritual standpoint, but also from an emotional standpoint. I think it's just very, very apparent that the spotlight never fixes anyone. The spotlight only exposes all the issues you have for all the world to see. And I think the minute, I think like, "Wow, I'm all that," is a minute that I am exposing myself without the protective covering of God. I don't want to do that.
Jim Cress: Boy, that's beautiful. Thanks for ... seriously, the lead into that. This is a powerful moment right here. Authentic. May I ask a question? And you always, and so does Lisa, you encourage me to think ... you inspire. I don't want to say you make me think; you inspire me to think. If this is already stuff you've covered before, please be kind to an older man. Early on we got Adam and Eve, Adam and Eve. We hear all that. And I'm sitting here listening to both of you today and thinking, OK, one step past them, the first grandchild murdered the second, and I see per your book, per God's Truth, that Abel humbled himself and said, "If that's what you want, God, I will do this. I will give you the flock."

Cain went in pride's same bid, same request, whatever, and Cain that quick on and said, "No, I'm doing it my way." We barely started. I know Adam and Eve did it too. And they blame people. It's the devil. It's that woman you gave me. But early on, right away, the first offspring, one said, "I shall humble myself," and was murdered for it. And the other one said, "No, I'm going to in pride do that." This thing got off from the get-go. I know we know that. But it's like ... to stop for a moment, selah, ponder and go from the get-go. We've had two paths we can take.

Joel Muddamalle:

Absolutely. Lysa, as I reflect on what you just said and what Jim said, I wrote down some notes because you modeled it for us. And, Jim, you just unpacked it even in the Cain and Abel story. The first thing you said was thank you.

Jim Cress:

It's beautiful.

Joel Muddamalle:

It's just such a simple acknowledgement.

Jim Cress:

It is.

Joel Muddamalle:

It's not like, "Those big things aren't true." It's just thank you. And when we acknowledge as a thank you, what we're actually acknowledging is the goodness of God in our lives. That is God's kindness, God's good pleasure. And then the second thing that you did was you gave us insight into perspective, into true Kingdom perspective from the wisdom that comes from above, not from the wisdom that comes from below that actually wants to invert that perspective ... the Cain and Abel story that wants to invert and corrupt God's good design and desire for us. This is why I think that humility is the message, not just for today, but it's been the message from yesterday and from the beginning of creation. And it's going to be the message until Jesus comes back. This is why I'm so committed to this message ... is my life message, because I really do believe that humility is a protection, a prevention and a preservation.

Jim Cress:

Wow.

Joel Muddamalle:

You modeled it for us too, Lysa. Humility protects us from thinking too low of ourselves because if we think too low of ourselves, inevitably we'll be walked all over. But, y’all, we are children of the King of the cosmos, made in His likeness, in His image — like you, daughter, are a daughter of God; you, son, are a son of the King. And I choke a little when I say this, but you can walk with just a little bit of swagger, not because of who you are but because of who Dad is. Humility is also a prevention. Humility prevents us from thinking too much of ourselves because if we think too much of ourselves, inevitably we will be the ones who are walking all over other people. And then lastly, and you talked about it as you think about What is that conversation going to be like? And I think you're going to have that conversation.

What is that moment, that holy humility moment that you get to exercise that you've been practicing and cultivating on this side of eternity that's going to come into fruition with King Jesus Himself? What does that look like? I think humility is a preservation. It preserves us in the faithful life of Christ. And if you're feeling unsafe and if you feel like things are out of control and if you feel like your weaknesses are liabilities in your life, friends, like humility is such a gift because it places you in the safest place that we possibly could be, and that is in the faithful hands of Jesus. And I'm so grateful for the both of you having this conversation and being vulnerable and sharing on it, because I really believe that humility is not just a checklist that we're going to check off and move on from; humility is in fact the very soil of the Christian life that we live from.

Lysa TerKeurst:

Thank you, Joel.

Jim Cress:

Thank you, Joel. Wow.

Shae Hill:

Wow. I loved that conversation. It was so interesting to hear all of their perspectives around this topic of humility and pride. I feel like pride can be one of those things that it actually feels a little scary, but honestly, today's conversation was sobering in a really helpful way. Humility is the way of Jesus, and He can help us walk in that posture. Friend, as you continue to work through what you're walking through, I want you to grab a copy of Dr. Joel Muddamalle's new book, The Hidden Peace: Finding True Security, Strength and Confidence Through Humility. Through the pages of this book, Joel will help you walk through hurtful situations in the most God-honoring way by getting a true understanding of biblical humility. Get your copy today from the P31 Bookstore by simply clicking the link in our show notes. And if you want to go deeper into this topic, I have some great news for you.

The Hidden Peace is our July book club pick in Circle 31 Book Club. Circle 31 is completely free to join, and it's been amazing to see this community of women just really connect. And honestly, the whole community's really taken off since we launched only a few months ago. When you join, you'll get access to exclusive Circle 31 member perks, like weekly videos from Joel, and you'll even have the opportunity to join a Grow Group, which are our P31 staff-led community groups. They're full of women who will encourage you in your current season of life as you apply the truths that you discover in the book; you can simply visit circle31.org to join today.

That's all for today, friends; thank you so much for tuning into this episode of Therapy & Theology. Therapy & Theology is brought to you by Proverbs 31 Ministries where we believe when you know the Truth and live the Truth, it changes everything.