Therapy and Theology

Shae Hill: Hi, friend. Welcome to today's episode of Therapy and Theology, where we help you work through what you walk through. I'm your host Shae Hill, and I'm so glad you're joining me for this special summer mini series on red flags. In this first episode, Lysa, Jim, and Joel will tackle the question, what is a red flag? But before we jump in, I have a few things that I wanna share with you.

First, you know we are all about equipping you with resources to help you even after an episode ends. So for this mini series, make sure you download a free resource by Lysa TerKeurst titled, “Is This Normal? 15 Red Flags You May Be Missing in Your Relationships.” This resource will help you get honest about the effects unhealthy relational dynamics are having on you with a guided list to process through so you can tend to your own emotional well-being in a biblical way. Next, I thought it would be fun to share this review from one of you guys.

Here's what this listener said, I'm so thankful for this this podcast. It has helped me work through so many issues in my life and enabled me to step outside of my whirlwind of emotions and plant my feet on the truth, the Word of God. I hope this podcast continues. You are changing lives.

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Lysa TerKeurst: Welcome to this episode of Therapy and Theology. I'm Lysa TerKeurst. I'm joined, of course, by the one and only Jim Cress and Dr. Joel Muddamalle.

Thank you, guys. I have been studying the subject of trust as it relates to trust in relationships and even our trust with God. For several years now, there was a deeply personal reason that I wanted to study this topic of trust. Mostly because I had my trust broken, many, many times over and over in deep ways.

And it affected my friendships, it affected my family, it affected even the core of my own discernment that I really counted on and thought that I was in tune with the Holy Spirit and had this discernment and certainly my trust with the Lord too. Sometimes when you feel like you cannot understand what God allows, it can almost feel like a betrayal as well. So I've been saying this topic a lot. And today, I wanna laser focus in on the makings of trust. And for the purpose of this little micro series that we're doing in Therapy and Theology, we wanna get to red flags because red flags sometimes indicate the roots of distress, but also they can be warnings even before you get into a relationship.

Sometimes when people hear red flags though, they think, oh, they're gonna talk about dating. No. We are not gonna talk about dating or actually, maybe dating applies here, but we're gonna expand it so much bigger because we wanna get to the essence of why we sometimes get an ick feeling when we're interacting with someone else. Maybe we're wondering, why do I feel like this person isn't telling me the truth? Maybe we're wondering, why does this person always show up late?

Can I really count on them? Maybe we're wondering, is this person being faithful, and can I really trust this person with my heart? I don't know why you've recently experienced the ick, but what I do know is it's this awkward feeling of questioning our safety. Am I safe enough to give this person or reveal to this person a piece of my vulnerable heart?

So, let's back it all the way up. What does trust require in a relationship? As I've studied it, I've decided trust requires safety and connection.

In other words, we wanna connect relationally but we, at the same time, wanna know that we're safe in doing so. How risky is this relationship? All relationships carry risk with it, but we wanna minimize the risk to the point where we feel safe as we connect. Now here's something fascinating.

With some people, I've noticed, hashtag me, maybe it's because of my family origin history. Jim loves to dive into that.

Jim Cress: Did we just shift into a counseling session here?

Lysa TerKeurst: This is my free counseling opportunity. That's why I love doing the Therapy and Theology.

Joel Muddamalle: Right?

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. Okay. Maybe it's because of some theological reason. I don't know. But here's what I know. I tend to be the kind of person who I prioritize safety so high that sometimes I diminish my ability to deeply connect.

I wanna be safe. I wanna connect, but I'd rather be safe. And if I don't feel safe, then I'm really gonna distance myself down to where the connection is not very deep in a relationship.

Jim Cress: I like how you own that too so brilliantly.

I'm going to distance myself. The other person or the red flag itself is not distancing. I'm going to begin to distance or pull back. That's some good ownership.

I mean, to go, I'm aware, self aware. I'm gonna distance myself.

Lysa TerKeurst: Now there's other times in my life, and, yes, I'm gonna personalize it because I can.

Jim Cress: Keeping it real.

Lysa TerKeurst: I'm the one that has the mic right now. So there have been other seasons in my life, especially when I was in my early twenties, when I desired connection so high that I diminished safety by ignoring red flags, obvious warning signs, things that I sensed weren't right, but I overlooked them or chose not to pay attention to them because I so wanted a connection in this relationship. I wanted this relationship. I liked what this relationship gave me.

So I prioritized connection so high, and I diminished safety. The secret to a healthy relationship that has trust, and I do believe trust is the oxygen of all human relationships, we wanna bring those things back into balance. We want both safety and connection.

Joel Muddamalle: It's so good, Lys. So I think one of the things that's super important in this too is as we're studying about trust, we kinda looked at the Hebrew word batah.

And so fascinating that whenever this Hebrew word batah, which we translate in English as trust, when the object of trust is God, it's always positive. But when the object of that trust is other humans or things, it flips and it becomes a negative context. And what you're saying about safety and connection, I think, is so vitally, foundationally, theologically important because in the opening pages of scripture in Genesis when God creates like, have you ever wondered this? Why doesn't God create Adam and Eve first? Like, okay, this is like this and Jim, you're probably gonna like, like, therapize me at some point.

Lysa TerKeurst: You mean before –

Joel Muddamalle: Before the creation order.

Lysa TerKeurst: Light, darkness –

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Let me ask you.

Jim Cress: And you’re wondering what I'm gonna think.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. I have this deep I have this deep thing over. I was trying to figure out, like, what do other people think about me?

Lysa TerKeurst: And so now I'm like, what do other sure if you were, like, why did he create Adam and Eve first as opposed to, like

Joel Muddamalle: No. Yeah.

Lysa TerKeurst: Michael Jordan.

Joel Muddamalle: No. No. No. No. Like, okay. So the story of creation – the story of creation

Jim Cress: I'm impressed.

Joel Muddamalle: I'm so shook right now because normally, I'm the first one who brings in the Michael Jordan, and you did. This is evidence of discipleship gone right. I just want everybody to know. After almost nine years in Mission together, I got you talking about MJ. This is like a highlight reel of my career.

Lysa TerKeurst: Reel it in, Joel.

Joel Muddamalle: Alright. So, okay. This I do think this is important. Okay.

Just think, why wouldn't God create Adam and Eve first and then kinda have them in the stands to witness all of the grandeur of, you know, light and darkness That'd be kinda epic. Right? No question. I actually think this is incredibly intentional.

You see, God intends for Adam and Eve's first experience in Eden to be within the context of safety and connection. Right? They wake up and they go, everything is rightly ordered. Everything is beautiful.

Everything is where it should be. And on top of all of that, we get to walk and talk with God himself. So I just wanna just as a fundamental question of is this theologically accurate? Is this actually what the scriptures point to? I just wanna just like show, exegetically, it absolutely is.

And so that impulse that we have to long for safety and to long for connection is action impulse that's given to us by God himself. And so he so designed these longings and these desires to be experienced in a place of balance where there's safety so you can have connection, or there's connection because of the presence of safety. And what you've just done though is I think you've identified the Genesis 3 impact on this question, which is now there is a fight for the one or the other. Is there, an overbalance for the one and the lesser for the other? And so just from a, a biblical standpoint, I think what you're saying is so important because I don't think I've read Genesis 1, 2, and 3.

It was in the context of safety and security and the impact it would have had on Adam and Eve's relationship with each other and for sure with their relationship with God and how trust is at the very center of that.

Lysa TerKeurst: And isn't it interesting the last verse of Genesis 2, right before we get to Genesis 3, it says, and Adam and Eve were both naked and they felt no shame. In other words, they could stand vulnerably before God and with each other and they had no other opinion to contend with but the absolute pure love of God and the acceptance of one another.

So there was safety and connection even in that. Now what's interesting is we get into Genesis 3, we find the erosion of connection, but I would also say the erosion of that feeling of security and safety for sure. Because when sin enters in, chaos enters in.

There's shaming. There's blaming. There's all kinds of relational, issues, dysfunction that happens. But I think as I look at it, I wanna cast a vision for what I think is so important when we talk about building relationships that are safe. So when you get into a relationship, you have a vision for what you think this relationship could be, whether it's a friendship. And you could say vision. You could say expectations. You could even say assumptions. Okay?

But we have a thought. We have this idea, this vision for what this relationship is gonna be. If you get into that relationship then and suddenly you realize, woah, we value different things. That's gonna be an issue.

And as we talk about these red flags in our next episode today, we're building the foundation. In our next episode, we're gonna go through 11 relational red flags that are really important to examine, not just preventatively, but also to examine where are the roots of distrust in our already existing relationships. But back to vision. So we have vision, then you have value. What do you each value?

That needs to be pretty consistent because what you value is what you will prioritize. What you prioritize will determine your choices. Your choices then directly impact the direction you go, the actions you take, the words you say. Now, we started off at vision, but you see how we work down if we value things, we prioritize different things, we choose different things, we go in different directions, we take different actions, we're speaking different words. That vision that used to be unified suddenly becomes two different visions.

We're prioritizing different things. We're making different choices. We are going in different directions. So suddenly now the vision becomes division.

And that division is where often trust is broken. Betrayal can happen. Disillusionment, disappointment, destructive relationships, dysfunction, it all starts to emerge. So, oh, wise therapist, what are your thoughts?

Jim Cress: Well, I love the rhythm and the stair stepping down into that and even the parsing or the pronunciation of the word division where I start here from vision to division. And then as we talk about these red flags, I'm always curious with people gently. When did you see your first red flag? And you may be like, well, that's just he's having a bad day or she's having a bad day. And it's like, I don't know if you've ever seen this in traffic or ever experienced it.

Like, there's a stoplight. It's got red flags on a red light, and then the yellow light is just my energy. When I see the yellow light, which is caution, I'm a hit the gas and get through it as many people would do. Or even the red light, oh, okay. Nobody else is coming.

I can do it. We do that autonomically. Many people do that. I know Joel does it, on a daily basis. And I think it shows.

Lysa TerKeurst: Joel, are you speeding through yellow lights? That are about to turn red?

Joel Muddamalle: I mean. How -- No. Not with my kids. I mean, I'll send to that. Look out.

Jim Cress: No. But there's a sense of all these things, these stair stepping down, and then when do you see that first red flag and what did you do? And I think people then become, if they're not already self aware and go, yeah. I saw that, but I thought, well, he'll change or she'll change or whatever. And then two, three, four red flags in.

Yeah. But it's like and it's almost like that prefrontal cortex is offline and sometimes it's so neurochemically woo woo driven that it will go offline. Yeah. That's just and then move it aside when the red flags are clearly there. But you start from vision, clear down here.

And values, yeah, that is my value, but I've had people in my office many times say, but if I say that, you know, the third date in, this is a value or somebody says something, I'm like, hey, I'm not okay with that, then I'll just lose the person. I gotta get what you said eloquently. This is not about dating. It happens in friendships. Do I really wanna say that someone's cracking a joke, saying something here, talking about something that I don't feel comfortable with?

And I go, yeah, but then they'll just think, you know, I'm just being legalistic. So I think the red flags are there, and we're walking right through our blowing, right through our values all the way down when I know, yeah, I'm not okay with that in any relationship.

Lysa TerKeurst: The other thing that I think we can unpack for just a minute here is sometimes you're in a relationship and it's an already existing relationship.

And all of a sudden, something happens and you think, this is what I think. I go, well, I mean, everyone makes mistakes. Everyone has a bad day. Everyone's in a bad mood. So I tend to Pollyanna it.

Jim Cress: Rationalization.

Lysa TerKeurst: A little bit. And I tend to just want to give them the benefit of the doubt. Right?

Because I'm hyper aware. I make mistakes. I get in a bad mood. Yeah. I I sometimes have bad days.

Sure. Right? And so then okay. So it happens once, and it happens again, and then it happens again, and then it happens again. And all of a sudden, I'm like, I'm feeling like I'm not okay with this.

And what I'm really feeling is I'm not sure that I can count on this person. I'm not sure that I'm safe with this person. I'm not sure that I really know this person's real intentions. And so I start to say, like, I I'm not sure that I can trust this person. Now trust is a really big word.

So when we say trust, does that mean that we don't trust that they are a moral person? Right. Or do we not trust that they are a responsible person? Because those two things are vastly different.

So I think another great thing that we're gonna do is we unpack these red flags, and, certainly, immorality is one of the red flags we're gonna cover. That'd be a big one. Irresponsibility, another red flag that we're gonna really talk about. But the reason it's so important is because these may have different different implications as you say, I'm struggling to trust this person. Irresponsibility.

Joel, this is just for the sake of an example here. I'm not saying this is true. Maybe sometimes it's true, but not all the time it's true. Joel, I'm struggling to trust you, hypothetically speaking, or not, because you sometimes don't show up on time.

Okay?

Joel Muddamalle: Okay. So this is not hypothetical. This is called –

Lysa TerKeurst: I

Joel Muddamalle :First of all, this is called the Indian standard time. It is dinner time, and sometimes as a culture, we end up showing up a little bit late to things.

Jim Cress: You remember children are swaying against you before?

Lysa TerKeurst: Joel, this is not an ethnic issue. This is a time management issue.

Joel Muddamalle: Okay. I'm back. I'm back.

Okay. Yes. Yes. Oh, here we go. I did write a book on humility.

This is me accepting, in in humility that is a true statement sometimes.

Lysa TerKeurst: Okay. But for real? Yeah. For real.

So I may have this thought, like, Joel's not gonna show up on time. And so I may have this thought, I I don't know that I can trust that Joel's gonna be there on time. That is a big difference for me saying that to me saying I don't trust Joel and the rest of the sentences because I think he lies all the time. Okay.

So that's what I mean. Like, this word trust, like, if you're struggling to not trust someone Yeah. It's really important to unpack that that is a very broad term for a lot of specific situations that some are more serious than others.

Like, my trust issue with you might be you disappoint me, but you're not gonna betray me. You you're not gonna turn against me and start saying all kinds of crazy things about me because you're an immoral person, or you're not gonna suddenly do something, you know, and all of a sudden make me go, wow. I thought he was a theologian. I thought he knew the Bible, and now he doesn't know the Bible because that would be catastrophic.

Right? Yeah. But him not showing up on time is so vastly different, and yet we attach it to a trust issue in a relationship.

And so that's another reason that I think it's really important to really think through and understand. So I have this question. In relationships, do you tend to prioritize connection? And people who prioritize connection sometimes are people pleasers.

Sometimes they are, people that they just are very, very relationally. And maybe they're impressed by influential people. And so they really wanna connect with these influential people. Whatever. So do you tend to prioritize connection, or do you tend to prioritize safety?

Like, I have a general skepticism of all people, so therefore, I'm gonna make sure that I'm safe before I even potentially connect.

Jim Cress: That's an easy one for me, and we've done programs on this. I have had, from childhood, an anxious attachment style. So when things can get moments of weakness, that can still come out. If I feel connected with you and I really feel in that connection, good or not good doesn't matter, in the moment experientially, I will feel safe.

So I'm going to always be wired more directly primarily for connection, not safety first. But that comes out of my story. Feeling, can abandonment issues, childhood, whatever you wanna call it. And then if I feel like there's a real connection here, safety onboards very organically for me.

Lysa TerKeurst: Okay. So what are the dangers for a person who tends to prioritize connection more than safety? What are some of the dangers? Because I know a lot of people can relate to that.

Jim Cress: Yeah. I tell you one of the biggest ones, for me personally, since we've been incredibly personal here at the table today, is there are people who know how to hotwire or hijack a connection. They're doing that to me, and he's a strong word here, to even seduce me in non sexually, but just to pump me up, to inflate me, or to fake the connection, but still neurochemically, I can feel like, wow, this person affirms me, they like me, they may have ulterior motives. Right? Something, whatever that might be.

So I have to say, is this connection, like, hotwired or hijacked that quickly or has it progressed over time? And if I give any connection time and let it play out, I'll know, like, oh, this person was after something in me. That's why the connection went so intense so quickly. So I wanna vet it and say give it some time after a while. Most people can't pull off ongoing hijacking or hot wiring a connection.

If you give it some time, you'll be like, okay, I'm no longer they they've gotten what they need or they found out find out they're not gonna get for me what they wanted. So I have to assess that. That's a big assessment for me. That's them. They don't wanna pay attention to me.

Am I really feeling again neurochemically like, wow, this person likes me or they are they think I'm a great therapist or whatever. That's a trick for a lot of people. You're the best. You do all this. And they're wanting me to maybe, a little therapeutic here, to not ever confront them.

If they pump me up, then, like, now don't ever confront me on something. So I wanna assess what's going on and me going, Tim, you're getting a little too much of a hit off this affirmation. That's self awareness for me.

Joel Muddamalle: I think, so I'm prone towards connection for sure. And so, Jim, you can, evaluate the statement. But for me, what I've realized is I can so long for connection with people that I'm willing to excuse compromised safety in that relationship.

Lysa TerKeurst: Explain that a little bit more.

Joel Muddamalle: Okay. So I so long for connection with people. Right? Like, I I enjoy that.

That's something that that brings value to me. Probably definitely goes with childhood, all kinds of other stuff in my life. So in my mind, because that's such a high value proposition for me, if there's the absence of safety in that relationship, that person hurts me, that person is unreliable, that person says mean and hurtful things, because in my brain, I so long for that connection, the consequence of that for me is I will condone the lack of safety. I will make excuses for it.

Oh, they didn't really mean it that way. It's not that big of a deal. I will minimize the reality of the lack of safety because I so want connection.

Jim Cress: And our word there is you are rationalizing it. We gotta think it's a therapy word, but it's also a philosophical word and a theological word.

I'm rationalizing saying, well and your voice is often pitching people. They change, well, you know, hey. I'm gonna see this, but so, I you have some awareness in that moment that you're rationalizing. You may not call it that, but that's what's going on.

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. And so what are the long term effects when that happens? And you're excusing away other people's behavior, thus minimizing the effects of their disrespect or their disloyalty or their, irresponsibility towards you? What are the long term effects when you're like, no. I want this connection.

I want this connection. I want this connection.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. What I've realized is in those, situations that that connection was never really a good connection in the first place. That's the first one.

And then the connection is, in terms of monologue versus dialogue, it is monologue. It is me seeking after that connection. There's often not reciprocity of the connection back because if there was, there'd be a desire for safety to be in that relationship. And so what happens is over a long period of time, I will be exhausted. I will be spent out.

And then it does get catastrophic because at some point, I'm kind of like the all in or all out kind of guy. And when I'm all in, like, I'll go down the within the ship with you all. Like, I am your die hard. Like, I'm ride or die type of friend. But there will come a point in time where I will just go, wow, I've been taken.

Like, I have been taken at such an extreme level, and then my response is extreme in light of it. Like, I'll just be like, I'm done. I'm fine.

Jim Cress: If I didn't know, I’d think you were an Ennegram 3.

Joel Muddamalle: You do know that –

Jim Cress: If I didn't know that.

Lysa TerKeurst: Okay. So let me just pick one more just a little bit more. Yeah. Because you're younger than Jim and I.

I know that shock is hard to believe. Okay?

Joel Muddamalle: That's true.

Lysa TerKeurst: Much younger. You much younger.

One time he called me spiritual mother, and I was like, I am a little older than you, but can you call me your spiritual sister, please? Okay.

Joel Muddamalle: Ever since then, never again because I slipped on that.

Lysa TerKeurst: Okay. But do you find that because of where you're at in your career, this emerges in a professional sense?

Because it's so right now, connections are important. And I'm asking legitimately. It's not because I'm witnessing something in behavior, but I'm just fascinated. People in your age dynamic where you're growing your career, do you see this happen professionally as well as personally?

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. I had a long conversation with a friend about this recently, where I have gotten to the point where I'm disenfranchised with that connection. And I have this is like a real therapy session. I now have this thought in the back of my mind, like, okay, what's the when when's the ask gonna happen? When is the expectation going to come?

When is, you know, like and it's like, do you really want me for me or for what I could potentially offer in this relationship? And vice versa, do I really like this person for who they are? Like, I enjoy, like and I'm just to say, like, Lysa and Jim, we're real friends outside of this. That's how we can laugh and banter the way that we do. How many hours have we played games where you have just destroyed me every time?

Jim Cress: She's worthless. We will not play Monopoly.

Joel Muddamalle: Go with it. I won't play Monopoly. I just won't do it.

Lysa TerKeurst: It's a Monopoly Deal. But whatever.

Jim Cress: That's why he's using the wrong name again.

Joel Muddamalle: I got the wrong name, you know? I'm not this kid.

Jim and I just up here. We were talking about, hey, after our Haven place are changing. We're gonna watch a basketball game together. So –

Lysa TerKeurst: I feel very uninvited all of a sudden.

Jim Cress: Hey, there's a book by that title. It just takes a word. I mean, it's out there.

Joel Muddamalle: I mean, yeah. So for me, it's also like, do I really enjoy these people? Yeah.

It's good. Not just because of what they do.

Jim Cress: I like the contemplation of that.

Joel Muddamalle: But like, do I really, outside of everything else, like, yeah, man. These are people that I enjoy that are of good character that, are, you know, making as my friend, an ancient philosopher once said, imperfect progress is still progress.

Her name is Lysa TerKeurst. But, I mean, you know, I think that those are important things that need to be processed.

Lysa TerKeurst: That's great. That's great.

So I'm a little different. I prioritize safety, And I'm not sure that I've always prioritized safety Yeah. Higher than connection. But for me, I'm, like, very skeptical. Like and I have a little bit of that, like, okay.

What do they want from me? You know? What are their expectations eventually gonna be of me? I can't keep up with unrealistic. And so many timesc—

Jim Cress: Your voice mail is full.

Lysa TerKeurst: My voice mail is full and has been since 2017. I think it's actually the most one of the most brilliant things I've ever done. Yes. Because it's just like, you know.

I I don't have to carry the weight of everyone else's to do list because they can't dump it into my voice mail box. Right? But I prioritize safety so high now, and I have to really watch that. Because what will happen for me as I prioritize safety, I start instead of looking for the best potential in relationships, I start having an expectation, when is the shoe gonna drop?

Like, when when is it that they're gonna hurt me? When is it that they're gonna betray me? When is it that they're gonna reveal their true motivations and intentions? And living with that kind of skepticism, I've discovered, has can has the potential to turn me into someone that I am not.

I'm a very positive person. I'm a lover of people. I'm generous and all of that. So that's why safety is important, but I have to make sure that that safety isn't a dysfunction that I'm clinging onto where I'm using that as an excuse for behavior that I really need to address within me so we can bring it back into balance because true trustworthy relationships require connection. Super important.

Can't have a relationship if you have no connection. But it's gonna be really hard to have connection without real safety. So in the next episode, we're gonna dive in to these 11 relational red flags. Actually, we're only gonna have time for six, so, I'm just gonna go ahead and give that a little spoiler alert. But in my book, I Want to Trust You, but I Don't, you'll get all 11.

Yeah. That's right. But you do not wanna miss the next episode on red flags, but also roots of distrust. Why do we have that ick feeling when we're wondering, is this person trustworthy or not? Thanks for tuning in today.

Shae Hill: Thanks for tuning in today. Don't forget to download your free resource title, “Is This Normal? 15 red Flags You May Be Missing in Your Relationships.” We've linked it for you in the show notes below. Therapy and Theology is brought to you by Proverbs 31 Ministries, where we help you know the truth and live the truth because it changes everything.