Therapy and Theology

Shae Hill: Hi, friends. Thanks for tuning in to the Therapy and Theology Podcast brought to you by Proverbs 31 Ministries where we help you work through what you walk through. I'm your host, Shae Hill, and I'm so excited for you to hear another great conversation from Lysa TerKeurst, counselor Jim Cress, and doctor Joel Muddamalle. Each episode of this season is gonna help you get out of any dysfunctional dances and be bravely honest about what you may be experiencing behind closed doors. Today, they're gonna talk about different reaction types that we all have, anger and blaming.

They will also be talking us through a chart at one point in this episode, so if you need a visual, make sure you check out our show notes for that. Before we jump in, I wanna let you know about two things. First, we want to hear from you guys, our listeners. By clicking the link in our show notes, you can submit a question or even a voice memo for Lysa, Jim, and Joel to listen to. Your question could be answered on a future episode, so make sure you check it out.

Secondly, download a free resource by Lysa titled, “Trust is a Track Record, Five Scriptural Truths to Remember God's Faithfulness.” This resource will provide you with prayers to declare when you want to stay connected to God, guided journal prompts to help you work through your honest thoughts and struggles about trusting him and more. Because we help you work through what you walk through here on Therapy and Theology, I wanted to make sure you knew about this free resource that could really help you just do that. So download it today using the link in our show notes. Now let's jump in to hear from Lysa, Jim, and Joel.

Lysa TerKeurst: So here's my theory. If we can learn to have better reactions, we'll have better relationships. Now, obviously, Jim, you have taught me that we need to shift from reactions to responses, and that is 100% true. And at the same time, right when our happy gets bumped or right when something goes on that triggers pretty strong emotion in us, typically, we're gonna have an immediate type of reaction. So today, I wanna talk about how better reactions how we act and react.

You know, our character is managed in how we act, but our character is often revealed in how we react. And this is a biblical principle. Basically, what we have stored up in our heart is what will eventually come out of our mouth.

So it is important that we tend well to what our previous reactions have revealed about things that need to be addressed in our heart. So, Joel, I know you always have some great theology, so I'm gonna let you, give us some biblical wisdom about reactions. And then I wanna help you determine there's four reaction types, and I wanna help you determine what reaction type are you with different kinds of relationships in your life. So let's start with the theology today.

Joel Muddamalle: So I think all of our reactions have to be rooted in some type of framework. There's gotta be something that motivates that reaction. And often when we don't have the right source as the motivation of that reaction, then our reactions will end up in extremes. You know? And I know we're gonna talk about that here in a bit.

But I want us to take us back to what God's ideal is for our reactions and where they should actually be rooted. And we're gonna look at a passage of scripture, actually two passages of scriptures that, are quoting each other. And there's some interesting Greek and Hebrew language stuff I'm gonna do just, you know, surface level to, to get excited a little bit about, what the implication is for this. And it's a verse we've actually already looked at in a previous episode. So we're gonna look at Deuteronomy 6:4-5 once again, and it's the Shema.

And, Lysa and Jim, we talked about in a previous episode that this was the foundational verse, foundational teaching that the people of God always communicated to their children. You know? It's like we all have, verses that you put, as a, you know, statement on a coffee mug. You know?

I think little Israeli kids were walking around with this in their in their coffee mugs. They probably couldn't drink coffee. It was too little.

Jim Cress: Right? I don't know.

But if they did drink coffee—

Lysa TerKeurst: And I can guarantee there's nothing printed on the top of that. Yeah. You know?

Jim Cress: This is pretty heavy. Right?

Joel Muddamalle: That's right. Exactly. Just check. But just follow with me. This is this is the idea.

This is what, this is what it says. It says—

Lysa TerKeurst: Okay. Remind us of the verse one more time.

Joel Muddamalle: Deuteronomy 6:4-5. So it starts this way.

It says, listen, Israel. The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And then it says this, love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength. So remember, if our reactions are gonna be rooted somewhere, what the Shamma teaches us is where our hearts and minds and our, our souls are strut like, like, the whole of what makes a human a human, what it should be rooted in is love for God. Right?

Now there's a little little detail. I actually think that sometimes, you know, got people who play checkers, people who play chess, Jesus I think is often walking around in the New Testament reminding everybody, by the way, I created both checkers and this. Okay? So Jesus actually quotes Deuteronomy 6:4-5 in Matthew 22:37-40.

And in Matthew 22:37-40, Jesus says he said to him, this person who's speaking, to Jesus, he says, love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind. This is the greatest and most important command. The second is like it. Love your neighbor as yourself. This is all the law and the prophets, which is kind of amazing because the law would have been the first five books of the Old Testament, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

The prophets would have actually picked up at Joshua and gone all the way through Malachi. So notice what Jesus says. Jesus is like, by the way, the entire Hebrew bible depends on these two commands. Right?

Lysa TerKeurst: It can be summed up with this.

Joel Muddamalle: With this with this statement. But Jesus is fascinating. What is Jesus doing? In Hebrew it's gonna be a little technical, but I'm gonna summarize it kinda quickly here. In Hebrew, the word lord in Deuteronomy 6, because that's where Jesus is quoting, the word lord is the Hebrew word Yahweh.

Okay? The word God, right next to it, so the Lord our God, the Lord is one. The word God is Elohim. Two distinct words to describe God.

It's talking about the uncreated creator. Fascinating detail. In the New Testament –

Lysa TerKeurst: Okay. Wait. The uncreated creator.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. So what that means is that God, the one that we serve, has no beginning and he has no end. He's there forever.

He is the uncreated one.

Lysa TerKeurst: No one created him.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. But he's the one who creates all things.

Lysa TerKeurst: Okay.

Okay? But note this is like like a fun welcome to seminary. He says the Lord our God, the Lord is one. So the Lord is Yahweh, the intimate name of God. Elohim is the name for God the Father.

But then in the New Testament when that Lord Yahweh is translated, it's translated as Kyrgios. Now what's fascinating is every time Jesus is referred to in the New Testament, guess what his name is? Kyrgios, Lord. Well, every time, God is referred to the New Testament, it's Theos, which is God the father. Well, what's the Hebrew equivalent to that?

Elohim. So just tell you, Jesus is amazing. When Jesus gets to Matthew 22:37-40, he says, love the Lord, he's actually saying himself. Love Jesus, your God, the father.

Well, who's Jesus and your God? They're one. They're the same. So he says all of the law and the prophets hang on this thing, that you are to love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.

So our reaction types, regardless of how we react, have to have a rootedness in a love and an affection for God the Father. You know? It has to be embodied by the life of Jesus, God the Son. And then it is kind of fascinating that you can't live theoretically here.

Like it's not okay to just be like, oh, I'm gonna love you theoretically. Like if I looked at my wife and I'm like, Britt, I love you theoretically, but I'm not gonna act in any ways that show my love.

Lysa TerKeurst: Be lived out practically.

Joel Muddamalle: It has to be embodied. Yeah.

So what does Jesus say? Oh, by the way, the way that you put this on display for the world is by loving your neighbor as yourself. So how do you love your neighbor? You love your neighbor with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. Well, what is love for neighbor rooted in?

First and foremost, a love for God. So when we think about our reaction types as we get into kind of the therapy part of it, I think what the scriptures and what Jesus himself really give us is the rooted framework that the way we react has to be rooted in the person whom we love. Right? And so if we love Jesus, then we're gonna react in the way that Jesus desires us to react.

But if our love is fractured or if we start to discredit or start to look away from the source of love, Jesus himself, then we'll start to notice that our reaction types will start to go sideways.

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. And I think it's also that we need to continuously fill our heart, mind, and soul with God's love, with the truth of God. Because if we don't, exhaustion, hard things we're going through that stir up strong emotion, missing too much time in the word of God and a lack of worship and a lack of gathering with other believers.

All of those things are like opening up little holes in the love tank that we're supposed to keep filled up full of the love of the father, and it'll just start draining all of that out. And then when we get super empty, we either try to react fully in a good way out of emptiness, which we know isn't gonna work Right. Or we start to fill it up with other things, like maybe it's video games, maybe it's watching certain TV shows, whatever it is. But if we're filling our heart and that's what's stored up in us, then evidence of that is gonna start coming out of our mouth too.

Joel Muddamalle: And, I mean, I think this is proven in so many practical ways. If what you consume, it's not a what if. It's what you consume is going to be directly correlated to how you act. So if you are consuming, content on social media that is consistently suggesting that the world is, is critical, like, it's just a critical perspective on everything, What you'll start to notice is you will react as a critical person. Right?

It's kinda funny. One of the things I try to do with my Instagram, I try to curate the algorithm on Instagram so that you get two things. I only want my my home feed to have two things. You guys know what those two things are?

Jim Cress: Humility. You wrote a book on it.

Lysa TerKeurst: Basketball.

Joel Muddamalle: Lys got one.

Jim Cress: I was trying to be more spiritual.

Joel Muddamalle: I know. Right. No. It's just I'm a very real person, Jim. Two things. Right?

Lysa TerKeurst: Basketball and theology?

Joel Muddamalle: No.

Jim Cress: UFOs.

Joel Muddamalle: No. Let's try it. Basketball and German shepherd puppies.

Lysa TerKeurst: I was gonna say puppies.

Joel Muddmalle: It's amazing. I could have the worst day possible, but I'll if I see a germ like a little puppy doing something cute, it changes my life. Like, it it makes me wanna be, like, happy and to be joyful. But I'll tell you what, if what I'm consuming is constant criticism, like even with the theology stuff, like if if what I'm consuming is constantly people who are critiquing other people, who are suggesting that everybody and their moms is a heretic, like all this kind of stuff, it starts to create a lens of how I react to other things where my default begins to be, maybe I should be critical of that.

Maybe I should try to find what's wrong with that phrase or with that sentence. You know? And in so doing, it actually is evidence that what I'm being filled with are actually not the words of God and the, like, the heart of what God has.

Jim Cress: So you've just said what consumes what you're consuming consumes you.

Joel Muddamalle: Yes. I mean, it's just amazing.

Jim Cress: Yeah. I get that.

Lysa TerKeurst: And I think we also have to remember we're also filling ourselves with narratives.

Yeah. And so if our narrative is in alignment with the word of God, then we're gonna be filled with more and more truth, which we know that the truth is what's gonna set us free from negative narratives, you know, and set us free from sin and, you know, all of that. But sometimes what will happen with me, and I'm just gonna have confession time. I'm glad that you're full of puppies and basketball.

Joel Muddamalle: German shepherd puppies.

Lysa TerKeurst: Oh, German shepherd. Thank you. But what can happen for me is something hurtful will happen. I'll develop a narrative around that because trauma is not just what happens to us.

It's a big part of the trauma and the impact that it has. It's the story we tell ourselves because of what happened to us. And so I'll start filling my mind with these narratives about how someone really doesn't have my best interest in mind. Someone can't be trusted. I'm feeling threatened.

So, of course, if I'm filling myself up with those negative narratives, then what's gonna spill out oftentimes Yeah. Is evidence that that's what I've been thinking about that person anyway. So it's gonna be accusations. It's gonna be blame. It could be shaming myself.

And that leads us right into some of what we wanna be cautious of as we think about these four reaction types. Now four reaction types, I'm gonna name them, but I wanna tell you something important. So here we go. The exploder that blames others, the exploder that shames herself or himself, the stuffer that builds barriers, and the stuffer that collects retaliation rocks.

So when I was writing my book, Unglued, which is where all of this is written out, I was actually sitting at a bookstore, and I would go to this bookstore every day. And they have a little cafe in the bookstore, and I would write. And it just became, like, my spot. So there was a lady one day that came to my table, and she said, Lysa, no. She didn't say Lysa.

She said, hi. My name is blah blah blah. I introduced myself as Lysa. And then, she said, I see you here every day. What what are you working on?

And I said, I'm writing a book on reactions. And I said, there's four different reaction types, and I know if we have better reactions, you know, quite possibly, we'll have better relationships. And so I'm really working on my reactions, and I'm writing about that. And I said, and right now, I'm writing up four reaction types so I can help people identify which one of the four are you. And then I told her.

I read the four reaction type, the exploder that blames others, the exploder that shames herself, the stuffer that builds barriers, the stuffer that collects retaliation rocks. And then I asked her, which one do you think you are? And she paused, and she said, you know, what's interesting is I shift my reaction type based on who I'm having a reaction with. And it completely changed the course of how I wrote this book because she's right. I will have one reaction with my pastor, and I'll have a different reaction with one of my kids.

I will have one reaction with Jim, but I'll have a different reaction with a friend. Yep. And so I think it's really interesting as we think through these four reaction types to identify one relationship and think through what reactor type am I in this relationship. Okay.

So you guys go ahead and pick your one relationship. Who are you gonna say?

Joel Muddamalle: Gosh. This is like you're really putting me on the spot right now.

Lysa TerKeurst: Let’s say Britney.

Joel Muddamalle: Oh, gosh. Okay.

Jim Cress: Although, we are just even it out, and I’ll do Jessica.

Lysa TerKeurst: And you'll say Jessica.

Jim Cress: Yeah why not.

Lysa TerKeurst: Okay. Perfect. Then I'll do Chaz.

Jim Cress: Oh, perfect.

Lysa TerKeurst: Okay. Here we go. Okay. Alright. So to determine our reaction type in that particular relationship, here's what I want you to do. I want you to think –

Joel Muddamalle: This is a group exercise. We just walked into a group exercise.

Jim Cress: Group exercise.

Lysa TerKeurst: Okay. Okay. Here's what I want you to do. I want you to think of a circle, and I want you to split that circle in half.

On the top part of the circle, I want you to think internal processor. On the bottom part, I want you to say external processor. So with Britney, when something comes up, Joel, do you typically take whatever's going on and immediately you want to externally, like, process everything that's going on?

Not at all. Okay. So then you would like to enter you're gonna take it in and process it internally?

Joel Muddmalle: Like, I will, yeah, think about it by myself inside my own

Lysa TerKeurst: Perfect. What about you with Jessica? Are you immediately wanting to, like, process it by talking it out, or do you immediately wanna just internalize it and kind of get your bearings inside of you?

Jim Cress: First married, middle married, have been married forty years or now?

Lysa TerKeurst: Now.

Jim Cress: Well, now I'm going to because it's kinda my style of this is to external process, and then I begin to ground myself in turn internal like, woah.

Woah. Woah. Woah. Woah. That happens a lot.

Lysa TerKeurst: So less than you maybe previous unhealthy Jim.

Jim Cress: Would be external processing completely easy, and only until I got only till I got into therapy did someone help me go internal. Everything seemed like it was external.

Lysa TerKeurst: Okay.

And I can be both, actually. But for the purpose of this, I'll say I'm typically in my relationship with Chaz. I'm the one that wants to talk it out. He's the one that wants to kinda withdraw and think it through.

Joel Muddamalle: Okay. Britt wants to talk it out. I'm the one who wants to withdraw.

Lysa TerKeurst: Okay. Perfect.

Jim Cress: But I'm always the one who wants to talk it out anywhere.

Lysa TerKeurst: Okay. Yeah. Alright.

So here we go. So we've got our processing. Okay. Now I want you to think about expressing. So are you more of an external expressor?

Like, okay. You processed it. Now you're gonna go have a conversation. Are you actually gonna have the conversation and actually talk about it, or are you gonna internally just suppress it?

Because I just don't wanna deal with them.

Joel Muddamalle: I'm in suppressor.

Jim Cress: You need therapy.

Joel Muddamalle: Why do you think I'm here, Jim?

Jim Cress: You need to. Hey. That's why it works.

Lysa TerKeurst: Okay. So pick, like, unhealthy, Jim. Okay.

Jim Cress: Well, even even healthy, I'm going external. And then if something's there, if an elephant's in the room, I like to go, you know, let's invite. Let's talk about it. I wanna I just to let it sit there, it drives me nuts.

Joel Muddamalle: I'm conflict avoided. That's my issue.

Jim Cress: Okay. Oh. We're doing we'd like, like, six more episodes based on what you've just Okay. Alright.

Lysa TerKeurst: So you're external external. You're internal internal. Okay? And I'm external processor, but then I can be an internal suppressor.

So I'm external internal with that. With the way I process, but then the way sometimes I suppress. Now sometimes, like what I said with other people, I will immediately just wanna express everything.

But I think with Chaz, sometimes I'm more tempted to suppress. Like, externally, I wanna process it all, but then I wanna then kinda suppress before I say anything else.

Jim Cress: How's that difference just real quick? I know we get a lot of material to get through of internal, not suppression, but processing.

Because I will do a lot. I'll be kind of ABA form external, then I'll go internal and think, contemplate what's going, then external to come back. Let's talk through this, and then back to so I don't I I I don't know that I maybe I do. I'm not aware of it, but I don't internally suppress that much. Not for long because I it just comes up.

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. And that's true of me. Like, I'll suppress for a while, but then it'll eventually come up. But we're gonna talk about that in a second. Okay.

So based on the cross section, that's how we determine our reactor type. So, Joel, you're internal processor, internal suppressor. So you are the stuffer that builds barriers.

Jim Cress: Oh. Stove top stuffing right here.

Lysa TerKeurst: I am as external processor and internal suppressor, so I'm a stuffer that creates that collects retaliation rods.

Joel Muddamalle: I can see that.

Lysa TerKeurst: Joel.

Jim Cress: Can we leave me out of this in words?

Joel Muddamalle: It's the curse of the comeback. It It is. It is the curse of the comeback because, like, you've got such great, like, a wittiness to you.

Lysa TerKeurst: Okay. Thank you, Joel. But I believe he's trying to turn something so positive into this, you know, into what's obviously a negative thing that I'm working on.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. Well, I do isolation.

Lysa TerKeurst: So I do like to collect proof, and I'm not proud of that.

But I do want to make sure as I'm thinking through everything, I wanna have all my ducks in a row before we eventually have a conversation because I wanna just have, like, all my proof that I've thought through this. Not necessarily proof against you, but I'm gonna keep it inside so that when we do have the conversation, I feel like I'm well prepared. That's the nice way of saying it. But, actually, what will sometimes happen with the stuffer that collects retaliation rocks is I'll stuff and stuff and stuff and stuff.

And, eventually, the stuffing is going to come out. And when it does, that proof sometimes comes out as retaliation. Yeah. Okay?

Yours you're gonna start you're it you stuff and stuff and stuff, but then what you're in essence doing is building a barrier to sort of prevent that conversation from ever happening. You just want some distance.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. Okay. I think that's totally true.

Jim Cress: Thanks for confessing that.

Lysa TerKeurst: Jim, you are external expresser. External is --

Joel Muddamalle: I think Jim is Jesus because everything he keeps saying is puts him right in the middle.

Lysa TerKeurst: Right in the middle. Good night. I know.

Jim Cress: We'll be back after these important messages.

Lysa TerKeurst: Okay. But we're going to unhealthy Jim.

Jim Cress: My time here. Come on. What is it? I see where you're going.

Lysa TerKeurst: So, Jim, I've heard you kinda toggling between the internal processor, external processor.

Jim Cress: This when you identified that, the what you are, I'm I'm being very honest. I'll go with this one if you wanna put me there, but that is me to a t.

Lysa TerKeurst: Okay.

Jim Cress: Collecting all night.

Lysa TerKeurst: Oh, yeah.

Okay. Big time. I mean, I love it.

Joel Muddamalle: Works with that. Right? Because it's the retaliation, but then you're collecting to blame others.

Jim Cress: Oh, yeah.

Joel Muddamalle: And use the retaliate like, use the rocks that you've used as. Is that fair?

Lysa TerKeurst: Yes. So if you're an external express or external processor, if you fall into that core quadrant, you're the exploder that blames others. Or if you are an external express or internal processor, which sometimes I can also be that, and that's the exploder that then shames themselves. Like, I'll have a strong reaction, and then I feel so terrible about having that kind of reaction. I kinda turn it on myself and shame myself.

I'll lay in bed at 2:00 in the morning and be like, why did I say all of that? That was ridiculous. Right?

Jim Cress: This is so good.

Our goal here is to get to, a place in our relationships where we can be honest without exploding, and we can also be peacemaking without stuffing. So as a stuffer, there is a good quality that can come out with stuffers. And that is that you feel like by not talking about it, that is your way of kind of wanting to keep the peace.

Right? And then, Jim, if you're external in in an unhealthy Jim, if you're external, it's like, well, I've I've gotta get the truth out. Like, I I've just I'm gonna say it like it is because honesty is really important to you. But sometimes our honesty needs to be balanced with peacemaking, and sometimes our peacemaking needs to be balanced with honesty.

And when we have that perfect combination, like a perfect reaction is one where and really it would be called a response, is where we can be honest and peacemaking at the same time. We can be honest without shaming or blaming. We can be honest without attacking, and we can be a peacemaker without stuffing it down and pretending it doesn't exist, collecting retaliation rocks, or building barriers.

That's what we're getting to. Okay. So as we talk about –

Jim Cress: Did we just get an F? Oh, did we just fail the the exercise teacher?

Lysa TerKeurst: No.

Jim Cress: You have that look.

Joel Muddamalle: You got an A.

Jim Cress: I know. You tried to, but she wouldn't take it. Okay.

Lysa TerKeurst: But here's the thing. No matter what reaction type you are, there's always things that we can work on so that we can turn reactions into better responses. And better reactions or better responses will lead to a better relationship. So let's look at –

Joel Muddamalle: I think what happens with me though is I have, the more I suppress, the more I hold on to those things, the more internal incongruity happens, and I have bitterness.

Like, there's a bitterness that actually kinda clouds everything else. And so I've created that barrier, but the longer that that barrier to separation is, the deeper I go into my bitterness and into my anger.

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. And that is so important to realize because the first step in any situation to get better is self realization.

Right? And I think on the exploder side, it can be accusation, like focusing on the other person and accusing them. If you wouldn't do this, then I wouldn't do this. That's one type of accusation. How does it usually come out with you, Jim, in in, like, an accusatory form if if you're in unhealthy, Jim?

Jim Cress: Well, if I'm sensing notice sensing, there's an injustice, a big activation point of trigger for me is if somebody's not owning their stuff. Because in my mind, and I think quite experientially, I'm often saying, okay. I see that I wanna own. I wanna own. I actually enjoy owning things.

Sometimes I don't, but often I do. And if I sense they're not owning their stuff or they're owning it with a yes, but, sure, I do that, but I know that but negates it. That's where that I can feel the beach ball that's held under underwater starting to come up like a grenade. So I'm trying to hold a grenade. No, don't do that. But I'll feel it wrapped around relational injustice, someone not owning their stuff. That's where I can –

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah or not pulling their weight. Not doing equal amounts of whatever. You know? It's like I'm giving and you're taking, you know, in that. Or it could be, like, I'm I keep owning things. I keep saying I'm sorry, and you just keep making me the bad guy.

Like, I can't always be the bad guy. You know? And so I think these dynamics exist in a lot of different relationships. So think of a different relationship, Joel.

Like, okay. Here we go. Think of think of with me.

Joel Muddamalle: Okay.

Lysa TerKeurst: Because I'm not Britney. So and we have a work relationship. So are you still the same kind of reaction with me?

Joel Muddamalle: It depends on what like, is it, like, a negative situation? Like, is it, like, a hard conversation? Is it just you know?

Lysa TerKeurst: Well, yeah. Let's say that it's something it's not, like, the hardest thing ever, but it is something that is bothering you.

Jim Cress: So put your hand in the bible.

Joel Muddamalle: Oh my gosh. Okay.

Lysa TerKeurst: Here are your four reaction times. Exploder that blames others.

Exploder that shames himself. Stuffer that builds barriers. A stuffer that collects retaliation rocks.

Joel Muddamalle: I think I'm still a I think I'm still a stuffer, but I think I would go in this situation and probably breaks your paradigm. But I feel like I'd be a stuffer that shames myself.

Lysa TerKeurst: Okay. Okay.

Joel Muddamalle: You know? Because I feel like, clearly, I did something wrong. Like, you know, there's just something, like, I I will become self deprecating in in that situation.

Lysa TerKeurst: Okay. Alright.

So if that's kind and then you will eventual I mean, eventually, we'll talk about it.

Joel Muddamalle: Always. Yeah.

Lysa TerKeurst: We don't typically have barriers. So so, really, what you will become is not necessarily an exploder that shames himself, but an expressor that shames themselves.

Because you don't have to be exploding. It just be, like, I'm gonna express it, but I'm gonna shame myself in the process. Okay. So what do you do about that?

Like because if you've identified that you're that reaction type sometimes in our relationship Yeah. Then how can you make healthy progress in this?

Joel Muddamalle: I mean, just to cut off the stuffing off of the, the very beginning because If I stuff, that's what gets there. So for, you know, like, we have a lot of honestly, I think the way that it works for us, like, welcome to our lives.

It's theology study days. You know? It is. It's almost every I don't know of a theology study day. And even with therapy and theology, where we don't start our time with life checkup.

How's everybody doing? You know? And it's usually in those environments that if there's something, that's the place that we get to, like, just process it. You know?

Lysa TerKeurst: That's right. And I'm so glad that you're saying this because –

Jim Cress: You're getting an A.

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. You're now getting an A. No need to shame or blame. You're just you're getting an a now.

But, Jim, this is something so important that you've talked in is doing regular check ins. And I think when we do regular check ins with whatever relationship that we're in where we're feeling some kind of way, you know, and there's this reaction that is is building or there's just this undercurrent or a narrative that's building, doing regular check ins helps us talk about this when the emotional charge is not so high. When the emotional charge is high, that's when the exploding and the stuffing reaches that intensity.

What we wanna do is have regular check ins that prevent the emotional intensity so that we can become better at having conversations rather than arguments. Because if we don't do these regular check ins, it's like the kettle that's boiling. You know? It's like regular check ins kinda let the steam out.

Joel Muddamalle: Steam out. That's a great analogy.

Lysa TerKeurst: But if you keep that steam locked inside, eventually, it's gonna do something. Right? It's gonna have, like, a pretty bad reaction.

So, Jim, I love how in therapy, and one thing that I think you've helped me do even before I met Chaz and even before I started dating, you helped me really understand how important check ins are and how to do a check-in. So do you wanna explain that?

Jim Cress: Yeah. It's being proactive, and what it's doing is kindly, gently, I thought all through this entire episode of Ephesians 4:15.

Just taking that out real quick of speaking the truth in love, even agape love, of seeking someone's highest good. So as a check-in is, in Nehemiah, you know, I've taken us through that many times. There's a place that they blew a trumpet when people got vulnerable, and I encourage people. I literally play my trumpet in my office these days and say blow your own trumpet. And that's saying, hey.

You deserve to know because behind the veil, behind the curtain, you can't know what's going on. So if we schedule a check-in or just do Jessica, I just have we'll do a regular check-in. I'll say, what am I missing? Is there anything I've, that I'm done out of alignment? Because I if there's something I have a problem with Jessica with my style, I'm gonna go to her or really anybody and say, hey.

Are you open to a thought? I'm struggling with this. She can at times, which is part of her journey, express things less less. So I think the check-in is going in to say, I wanna check and I wanna know where we are. We do it at the car shop with the mechanic.

We do it at the dentist. We go and get a yearly, whatever, male, female, whatever. So we're we're wired to do these check ins with things. We check our banking account and then our emotional relational bank account, we're not checking in. So I just wanna know because what happens in vagueness stays in vagueness to say, hey.

What am I missing here? It's up to the other person if I came to Joel and said that it's up to him because then we're fine. It's like, are we? So it's just at least give the offer the the open door to say, is there anything I'm missing? And if I know there's something, be continually confessing your sins one another.

I can come in and say, look, I don't have to ask you. I can tell you. For every rip, there's a repair. I just kinda joked, and I I could just see that hurt you, did it, or this is something I said I would do and do I can check-in I didn't follow through. The check-in really helps clear up the vagueness.

Lysa TerKeurst: And is there a certain way to do a check-in? Like, is there are there components of it that we need to make sure to include?

Jim Cress: Can I do mine real quick? Yes. I can't go too quick.

I mean, this is Fan o Ross build on something that a friend of mine who's having started, but I took it further. I have couples sit down and do it'll it's a word, f a n o r o s s, and that is I share a feeling. Let's say you and I were talking. I would share a feeling. This is what I'm feeling, which is your hand, mad, sad, glad, bad, or afraid.

Bad is guilt or shame. And here's maybe why I'm feeling it. You share a feeling. It's like I call it healthy pickleball in a relationship. Feeling f a, three affirmations and you give me that was in our healthy conversations contract.

Gottman's research says it takes five to 12 affirmations to cover one critique. So I say three things, not gratitude. These are three things. What I like about you could be your hair, your eyes, your tenderness, your walk with Jesus, whatever. Feelings, affirm three affirmations.

In need, what do you need? I know that on this side, way out, affairs are always pornography is always about perceived unmet needs. So to say, what do you need? What do you need from me? Or what do you need from someone else?

I just need to take a bubble bath or I need to watch Netflix. I need you to listen to me. So saying, what do you need? Then that's fan and then we go into the o ross part. The first one of the o is is, ownership.

We're right there, I mean, in biblical confession. I need to own this with no buts. But with no explanation. The word of God says basically our sins should shut our mouth and say, you know, I know this.

I wanna own this. And then I turn, I flip it and say to your spouse, is there anything you need me to own that I have not yet owned? Most people will know. Yeah. It kinda hurt me the other day when you said that.

Then fan o then to the r. The r is, for every rip, you know this, there needs to be a repair. So if I've owned something, sweetheart, how can I repair this with you? I may think I know the way.

Right? So r r rip and repair. There's a bunch of r's. There's two more. Any regrets I have, historically or current, and this is a big one.

I'm gonna talk about this in a workshop we have, a retreat on forgiveness we're doing. Is there any resentments? The resentments is you drinking poison expecting someone else to be safe. Okay. My resentments are nothing to do with you, even if I think they do.

And then second o is omission, which is this is big in life. What are you not telling me that, honey, you know I'd wanna know? Maybe I've been more depressed than you know. Maybe someone's looked at porn or something.

What am I hiding from you? What what am I omitting? You always wanna include the omissions. The other s is just simply there's two more. Where am I spiritually?

And definitely don't judge. Well, you ought to read your bible more. Just say this is where I am with God, with the bible, or where am I spiritually? And then I do self care. And self care is just what am I doing that's good in self care, and what am I not doing?

The other s I it's too long to get into is sobriety. Be sober, be vigilant, the Bible says. For sure. So am I sexually sober, alcohol, drugs sober, am I sleep sober, food sober?

It's just a way to check-in. If you go through that fan o ross thing, and these are, archive, they can go back and write that down. It's a pretty thorough check-in to say, now I kinda know where we are. Also, I have more ways to know how I can pray for you. I just don't wanna miss something and find out, you know, I've got stage four cancer or something emotionally because you don't ask me.

I'm not telling you.

Lysa TerKeurst: And I think there probably needs to be some ground rules too. Because I'm thinking, like, some of these things, it it requires great vulnerability.

Jim Cress: That's the Healthy Conversations contract. In my intensives Yes. The contract first, then Fan O Ross to say no. You don't get to do that.

That make sense?

Lysa TerKeurst: Absolutely. And I think the more we can create safe space inside of our relationship, the more we'll feel, able to be honest with the check-in. And then I think it also works that the more honest we are in these check ins, the more safety there will be in our relationship.

And always realizing too, like, as we're listening, we're not trying to collect proof against the other person.

Jim Cress: Much as I might want to.

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. But in something that's been a really good stop gate in my mind is, am I trying to prove that I'm right, or am I trying to improve this relationship? Because I can't do both at the same time.

So the goal here is to have healthy conversations that are honest and also peacemaking at the same time where we come together, we both feel safe, and we're able to have conversations rather than terrible reactions that lead to arguments, that lead to resentment, that lead to barriers, that lead to retaliation rocks, that leads to blaming, that leads to shaming, and all of those unhealthy cycles that we can get into. Thank you, Joel, for being so honest today. Thank you, Jim, for being honest today. And we hope that you've enjoyed this episode of Therapy and Theology.

Joel Muddamalle: You know what I think actually happened, Lysa?

I think that usually we come in here and it's like Joel does the theology, Jim does the therapy, and you're you know, you always say you brought the problems. You did a whole flip of this. That's actually what happened. She just she just theology ended therapy, and we had all problems. I knew that for the minute.

Lysa TerKeurst: Oh my goodness. Today has been a great day on Therapy and Theology. Thanks so much.

Shae Hill: Lysa, Jim, and Joel, thank you so much for today's conversation.

Friend, after listening, there's a lot you can do with what you heard today. First, I would encourage you to share this episode with a friend who needs to hear it. Send them the link to listen, then maybe go grab coffee and talk it over together. Or, like I mentioned at the beginning of this episode, you might find yourself in a really difficult place of feeling distant from God, questioning if his plans for you are really good, or maybe something else. If that's you, I want you to know that we deeply understand, but we also want to help.

That's why I wanna remind you about Lysa TerKeurst’s free resource titled, “Trust is a Track Record, Five Scriptural Truths to Remember God's Faithfulness.” Download it today using the link in our show notes. Notes. That's all for today, friends. Thank you so much for tuning in to Therapy and Theology.

Therapy and Theology is brought to you by Proverbs 31 Ministries, where we believe if you know the truth and live the truth, it changes everything.