Therapy and Theology

Lysa TerKeurst:

If you've ever asked yourself, "As a Christian, how do I respond when fill-in-the-blank?” then today's episode is for you. Sometimes on Therapy & Theology, we answer only one question. But other times, we'll cover several, and today is one of those days. Because we're moving quickly through these questions, don't forget to download the free Listener Guide my team put together, using the link in the show notes. OK. Are you ready? Let's dive into today's content.

As a Christian, how do I respond when my family or friend group is split politically?

Jim Cress:

My short answer, announced right here: Lysa TerKeurst for president.

Lysa TerKeurst:

[Laughter.]

Joel Muddamalle:

[Laughter.]

Jim Cress:

Well, Eileen, hey, is there anything else out there?

Lysa TerKeurst:

OK. That one came out of the blue. Thank you, Jim.

Joel Muddamalle:

That one ... You shocked all of us on that one.

Lysa TerKeurst:

OK.

Jim Cress:

Well, uh, speaking of shock, let's go the ... I mean, that was me and my attempt to be funny. If ... Are we really shocked anymore about the culture and the environments or how bad ... no matter what the question is, it's a mess out there right now? America's in, what I call, that trauma-limbic brain and limbic responses of fight, flight or freeze, seemingly mainly fight. So to really, really acknowledge where, in essence, the culture is, including maybe just our friends or family, can be like it's ... this is not where it used to be even 20 [or] 30 years ago. It is a very volatile playing field right now.

Lysa TerKeurst:

Mm-hmm.

Jim Cress:

That's, um, for me to acknowledge this is ... it's really, I think, unprecedented times.

Joel Muddamalle:

Yeah. I think we need a guide.

Lysa TerKeurst:

Mm-hmm.

Joel Muddamalle:

So we need a guide to help us. It's a topic I've been studying for the last 2 1/2 years. And y'all are gonna be like, "Joel, for real? Is this what you're gonna say?" And I am gonna say it, and I'm gonna try to defend it just a little bit. Uh, we need humility. We desperately need humility in this conversation. Humility is a protection, a prevention and a preservation. Humility protects us from thinking too low of ourselves.

Jim Cress:

Hm.

Joel Muddamalle:

It prevents us from thinking too high of ourselves, and it preserves us in the life of Christ. So when we apply humility to the conversation of politics and disagreement, what humility I think is gonna allow us to do is to have, um, this deep sense of confidence in our conviction —

Jim Cress:

Mm-hmm.

Joel Muddamalle:
— compassion in the way we communicate, and above all, it always reminds us that you and I are committed to the Kingdom of God at all costs. Um, and so if we can frame our relationships and our conversations to that lens of humility, uh, I think it's gonna lead to healthy relationships and will help us know when we ought to speak and when we ought to be hesitant.

Lysa TerKeurst:

I think that's really good. For me, I have to first ask myself the question, Do I have the emotional capacity to have this kind of conversation —

Jim Cress:

Good.

Lysa TerKeurst:

— right now?

Jim Cress:

Mm-hmm.

Lysa TerKeurst:

And if I don't have the emotional capacity, I need to be honest, but I don't really want to say things that I could potentially regret later or I need to do a little more research on this.

Jim Cress:

That's good.

Lysa TerKeurst:

And so if you don't have the emotional capacity or you don't feel like you're informed enough, it's OK to hit the pause button and say, "Let's revisit this another time." But if you do have the emotional capacity to talk about it, I think taking a big step back instead of making assumptions [on] why this person believes the way that they do, and you've taught me this, Jim: get curious, not furious —

Jim Cress:

Mm-hmm.

Lysa TerKeurst:

— and start asking questions, like "Help me understand that perspective a little better," or "Help me understand the story in your life that kind of got you to that place." Not accusing.

Jim Cress:

That's good.

Lysa TerKeurst:

Not making assumptions —

Jim Cress:

Mm-hmm.

Lysa TerKeurst:

— but really, truly giving the desire to connect with that person heart-to-heart, even if you never agree on the issues. Because here's what I know: We're all very divided sometimes —

Jim Cress:

Mm-hmm.

Lysa TerKeurst:

— in the way we think about things, our political views, even our interpretation of Scripture, but we can be very united in our tears. We can be very united in the hurts that have gotten us to the place where we believe like we believe, the compassion that we have for certain things, the righteous anger we have about other things, the need for justice. You know, those are places where if we can take a step back and not so much fight [or] to try to talk someone else into our political view but rather take a step back and just say, "Help me understand what got you to this place," that's not you watering down what you believe.

Joel Muddamalle:

Hm.

Lysa TerKeurst:

But that's truly providing a pathway for actual healthy conversation.

Joel Muddamalle:

That's so good.

Lysa TerKeurst:

OK. So let's go on and say, “When I'm a Christian, how do I respond when — and let's tackle one other — when one of my friends or family members is going through loss?”

Joel Muddamalle:

Well, how ... I guess I can start. And I would just say, um, uh, to sit with them in their tears and to sit with them in their emotion and sit with them in the reality of their grief.

Lysa TerKeurst:

Mm-hmm.

Joel Muddamalle:

Um, the ... Paul uses a second-person plural, um, in the New Testament often: allelon, and it's a reciprocal pronoun. And the idea of it, it's the word “one another.” So when you're reading Paul’s letters and your ... and you read “one another,” you wanna think about it this way: With the intensity that I love you, the expectation is that you ought to love back and give back. And so when somebody is sitting in grief, that the level of grief that they are walking through, some of the most helpful and hopeful things that you can do as a friend, I believe with that person, is to match that grief and to sit with them in that sorrow, to acknowledge it.

I was reading something the other day and, um, it was ... I don't even know, it was just a novel. And in the novel, the character said, "When you give somebody a hug that's going through some suffering, don't be the first person to let go." And I just thought that that was so —

Jim Cress:

Whoa. Yeah.

Joel Muddamalle:

— fanta ... because you never know how long that a hug —

Jim Cress:

Mm-hmm.
Joel Muddamalle:

Let them be the first one to start the release so that you know ... And so in the same way, when you're sitting in grief with somebody, sit in grief with them, um, and be present, wholly present in those moments.

Lysa TerKeurst:

I think it's really good to maybe even mark our calendar and remind ourselves to be present when other people go back to normal life.

Jim Cress:

Yep.

Joel Muddamalle:

Wow.

Lysa TerKeurst:

And one of the practical ways that I think we can be present is think of a moment in that person's day where they're gonna have a need.

Joel Muddamalle:

Yeah.

Lysa TerKeurst:

For example, um, maybe when they wake up in the morning, they are gonna feel the intensity of the loneliness. And some practical things they may need, just very practically speaking, are: What kind of coffee do they like; what kind of creamer do they like? Um, everyone needs toilet paper and paper towels and baggies. And so maybe just send that person a text and say, "You know, um, I'm praying for you today. I'm thinking about you today. I'm here for you today. And I've left, uh, a bag of some things that if I were you, practically speaking, I would need today, and I didn't want you to have to run to the grocery store.”

Jim Cress:

Care package.

Lysa TerKeurst:

Yeah.

Jim Cress:

Yeah.

Joel Muddamalle:

Hm.

Lysa TerKeurst:

And so instead of putting the pressure on the other person, [saying] "Let me know if you need something," because honestly, when I'm in grief, I can't even think straight. I don't wanna reach out and let somebody know. Another practical thing is ... I had a friend who got a really severe diagnosis. And I asked her ... I said, "A lot of people are gonna be calling you right now and asking for an update or what you're feeling. What do you want our conversations to be about?”

Jim Cress:

Mm-hmm.

Lysa TerKeurst:

And she shocked me, and she said, "I don't wanna talk about the disease. I don't wanna talk about the prognosis. I don't wanna talk about what the doctors are projecting for my future. I wanna have conversations of joy —“

Joel Muddamalle:

Hm.

Lysa TerKeurst:

"— Because conversations around joy make me feel like a normal person.”

Joel Muddamalle:

Mm-hmm.

Lysa TerKeurst:

And so even though the grief with her was the ... her own diagnosis that she was facing, asking her, "What do you want our conversations to be about?" really —

Joel Muddamalle:

Yeah.

Lysa TerKeurst:

— helped me to know my assignment wasn't so much to get all the latest updates. My assignment was to think of joyous things to talk to her about.

Joel Muddamalle:

So good.

Jim Cress:

Uh, I'd like to just add in to what you all have so eloquently said and so practically said. I do this on a regular basis with myself and with others I get to work with, and that is, first, for a moment, pause before you even maybe think about the other person for a moment, whether that's on social media and somebody's put out a post of grief or loss or a diagnosis or ... But pause first and go internal and say, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what's going on for me? What is this hitting in me?

Lysa TerKeurst:

Hm.

Jim Cress:

Sometimes there's that PTSD and just, Where am I? Am I a little dysregulated? Am I scared? You can pay attention first. That's radical self-care. That's not you being selfish and say[ing], "What is this hitting in me?" Again, you might journal and write about. Then that great Jewish concept ... I still get to work with Hasidic and Orthodox Jews in a lot of my therapy work, and I love it. Um, and the idea that's still there of “sitting shiva” and to come in and be with that person, a concept of being with them and not of them ... of them is, "I'm in them and trying to say things. And maybe I just need to stop talking, but I will be there, and you're gonna sense the gift of my presence," and also not giving any unsolicited advice or s ... how you brilliantly did with your friend to say, "What do you need?" or maybe, "What do you not need?" ... "Thank you. I'd like the conversations to be normal or about happiness or about joy.”

And when you're entering that arena, if you will, of any level, even just on the phone with a friend, I'd bet a lot of people are coming in ungrounded, a little dysregulated. I don't know what to say. People do it at caskets all the time and come up and say, "No, brother, he's with the Lord now," or, you know, "In the ... " They didn't say ... We just say some crazy things sometimes.

Lysa TerKeurst:

Hm.

Jim Cress:

And I think that's coming out of our own stuff, and we are coming in dysregulated. Back to what we've said: Even there, we can prepare in times of strength for coming times of weakness or vulnerability and say, "Jimbo, if you're about to walk into this thing or call or even respond on socials, what is going on in you before you respond or possibly even react?”

Lysa TerKeurst:

Hm.

Joel Muddamalle:

So good.

Lysa TerKeurst:

So good. OK. What do I do as a Christian when I find out that a friend of mine is in a marriage that is really struggling? So as a Christian, how do I respond to that?

Jim Cress:

Same thing I'm gonna go back to. Same song, second verse. I wanna go internal and say, "I just got that news." Sometimes, again, if it's hysterical, it's historical. But just ask yourself ... You go to the mall. You go to the directory. The red dot says, “You are here.” Whoa, whoa, whoa. What is this hitting in me before I make a move? What's going on? I would ask myself too, because you never know — I never know — is this person going to want some time with me?

Lysa TerKeurst:

Hm.

Jim Cress:

And if they do, truly assess, how much of my time do I have to give to that person? And also, if I'm going to go be with that person — I wish I had a better way to say this, but am I going to do my term — faux, faux counseling, fake counseling, surrogate counseling with a person when they may need to go to ... themselves to an expert, to a professional counselor, who can have the time —

Joel Muddamalle:

So good.

Jim Cress:

— and with ... to help them process through that? I just want to have those questions before I even engage my friend.

Joel Muddamalle:

Yeah.

Lysa TerKeurst:

Also, you know, for me, I would wanna get a gauge on the severity.

Joel Muddamalle:

Yes.

Lysa TerKeurst:

So there's a big difference between everyday struggles, you know —

Joel Muddamalle:

Mm-hmm.

Lysa TerKeurst:

— where you're having difficulties in the marriage. But then there's another severity when the marriage has become destructive to one or both individuals. And so depending on the severity, like, everyday issues, that can be friend-to-friend conversations, and that can be really helpful and also acknowledging your own relationship struggles to sort of normalize, "Hey, it's OK when you're having a difficulty —“

Jim Cress:

Mm-hmm.

Lysa TerKeurst:

— "but here are some things that have worked for me," not expecting the other person to do everything you're suggesting. But if you understand the severity, you will know whether this needs to be a friendship conversation where you can share practical things that have worked for you, maybe a book that you've read, maybe a conference that you went to, or when it's more severe, then, "Let me help you find someone specifically trained for that kind of issue. I can be here as your friend." But one of the best things you can do, I think, for a friend is help them connect with the right people who have the right information and education to really help deal with some of the more severe issues and struggling.

Jim Cress:

Let me just say — add, if I may — from a clinical or a therapeutic standpoint, uh, what I call the MRI... if they're talking about their marriage, the MRI for me is where the marriage really is, MRI. Where are they? As you dialogue [with] them and do your own assessment as a friend, I'm just telling you, you wanna assess for DV, for domestic violence.

Joel Muddamalle:

Hm.

Jim Cress:

You may ask questions because it could be dangerous you, even as a friend, giving advice. Financial things, if they were to put boundaries, you have a book about that, right, that that boundary could cost them financially, right? Or are they going to go and quote you, which I say all the time. And even as a friend, let alone quoting Therapy & Theology or quoting the, uh, the therapist and say, "Well, they just told me to." I wanna have that assessment inside to know what might be the pebble in the pond that the ripples can go out. And I might get over my head, but that person ... I mean, what do I do if I find out, "Yeah, he's been hitting me," or "She's been hitting me," or, "This has gone on,” or “There's sexual stuff ... infidelity going on —“

Joel Muddamalle:

Hm.

Jim Cress:

— I wanna have that awareness of where I could get overinvolved in a way that could have all kinds of implications.

Joel Muddamalle:

Yeah. I just say be careful of the superhero complex, kind —

Jim Cress:

Yeah.

Joel Muddamalle:

— of what you ... what you had just said.

Jim Cress:

Mm-hmm.

Joel Muddamalle:

Um, and I think consistently being aware of what you're mirroring back to them.

Jim Cress:

That's good.

Joel Muddamalle:

You know? Like, you're in conversation, you're consistently mirroring back or reflecting back to them something. And is that something, um, that reinforces or pushes toward potential, um, how do I say it, like, extenuating difficulties? Or is it something that says, "Hey, we're gonna acknowledge the reality of what's going on, we're gonna assess it, and we're gonna have clear boundaries of when I've met the end of my level of friendship support," you know. And I think we've all said that the same way, uh, in different ways.

And again, remind them the truth of who they are in Christ Jesus. I think that's one of the most important things. Because when we're struggling in these areas, one of the ways the enemy tries to — what I think — the enemy typically tries to do is to discount your value and worth as an image bearer of God. And so as you're reflecting truth back to them, point them back to their dignity in Christ. Point them back to what God says of them that is true of them. Point them back to, um, the source of comfort, which is the Scriptures. And then you be an agent of comfort, you know. Um, and yeah, process along the way.

Lysa TerKeurst:

Yeah. I think it's really good to assure that friend too that you will pray more words for them and over them than you'll speak to them.

Jim Cress:

That's good.

Lysa TerKeurst:

Because that in and of itself shows that you're willing to position your heart in conjunction with the Lord —

Joel Muddamalle:

Yep.

Lysa TerKeurst:

— rather than just your own ... relying on your own thoughts and suggestions.
OK. Last question. And we'll wrap up today's, um, episode. But as a Christian, how do I respond when someone I do life with really closely has a strong conflicting Christian belief to what I believe?

Joel Muddamalle:

Yeah. I mean, I would say one of the things that we absolutely need to retrieve as Christians is this thing called “theological triage.” So quick example, you go, uh, into an ambulance scene, somebody comes ... uh, a dude has fallen off the bike, right? The ambulance gets there, the paramedics get out, and they assess the situation.

Jim Cress:

Yeah.

Joel Muddamalle:

And you've got two things. You've got a broken ankle, and you've got bleeding out from an artery. What is the paramedic gonna do? He's gonna deal with the artery.

Lysa TerKeurst:

Mm-hmm.

Joel Muddamalle:

If that paramedic dealt with the ankle, we would all be like, “No."

Jim Cress:

Yeah, right.

Joel Muddamalle:

Like, "This is her ... " Like, "No." You know? And so in a similar way, we have to do some theological triage, which actually is gonna help frame how we get into disagreements, into arguments the veracity of it or, like, the severity of it, I guess is the better way to say it. So I categorize them into three areas. Um, and I get this actually from, uh, a guy named Gavin Ortlund who wrote an incredible, uh, book called Finding the Right Hills to Die On. I think it's phenomenal. And, uh, Gavin has four ... I think he uses different words, but the way I would phrase it is primary, secondary and tertiary.

The primary things are things that are essential to the Christian faith. We're talking about the incarnation; we're talking about Jesus's death, burial, resurrection and ascension. We're talking about the inerrancy of Scripture. These are things that make or break ... like, I'm willing to die on the hill. If there is a difference at this primary level, then there might have to be — actually, there probably will have to be — a change in the fundamental relationship. Because no longer as we brothers and sisters in Christ; we're fellow image bearers of Christ, but you have not submitted yourself now to the Kingship of Christ. So my relationship with you is to consistently present truth in front of you and to witness to you and to invite you back into the f ... Right? So that's one.

Lysa TerKeurst:

And I'll say, we've also discussed and we've studied this before, changing ... change at the dynamics of the relationship so that you recognize there's such a fundamental difference in a core essential of the faith that as long as the door's open, you can share wisdom with them, but you don't open up your heart —

Joel Muddamalle:

It's hard —

Lysa TerKeurst:

— then with them to share wisdom back because the foundation of their wisdom is not consistent with an absolute essential of the faith.

Joel Muddamalle:

Exactly. So that's primary. Secondary are things like, um, "Do you believe in baptizing infants or baptizing adults? What your view of end times? Are you a rapture person, pre-trip, post-trip, what, you know ..." Um, those types of things are secondary. Now, with this, it might be helpful, actually, it's probably wise and prudent even to have a denominational separation in the sense of for the sake of harmony and for the sake of just theological conviction, um, I believe in this way, so I'm gonna go to a church that kind of facilitates and works that same area to build harmony and unity. But we all recognize we're part of the same family. We're a part of the same family of God.

And so we can be [in] union with that and still have distinction of it. This should not cause division in the family or out of the family. And what I've found more often than not is, people take secondary issues and they turn them into first-degree issues.

Jim Cress:

Mm-hmm.

Joel Muddamalle:

And when we do that, we actually dishonor God and we dishonor our fellow brother and sisters in Christ. So having that is really important. And then the third degree, uh, or the tertiary issues, are things like, "What kind of music do you sing? Are you ... are you ... Do you like, uh, a full band or are you, like, old-school acapella, you know? Uh, do you like to be in an environment that has a bunch of lights and different stuff, or do you like pews? Are you liturgical, or are you ..." You know?

Lysa TerKeurst:

Mm-hmm.

Joel Muddamalle:

Um, and those are things that, hey, have an opinion on. And, um, and with some trusted friends, you know, maybe process through it. But don't ... Be very careful that we're not sowing seeds of discord in the family of God that allows that opinion to become something that causes disunity.

Lysa TerKeurst:

Hm.

Jim Cress:

Whoa.

Lysa TerKeurst:

And again, remember, we say it often, we don't want to violate Scripture in an effort to defend Scripture. And the secret is to come at anything that we're discussing with a humble heart and a gentle spirit. And we can get passionate about fighting for those primary issues, right? But we're fighting for, not against.

Joel Muddamalle:

Hm.

Lysa TerKeurst:

In other words, you know, we wanna have the Spirit of Christ. If we're trying to, you know, really bring somebody back into the truth, we're not gonna do it with the spirit of animosity, but we need to have the Spirit of Christ that leads the way in all of our conversations.

Joel Muddamalle:

To this day, and I've been in a lot of conversations, I've never seen anybody come to Jesus because they're like, "Man, you made me feel dumb.”

Jim Cress:

[Laughter.]

Joel Muddamalle:

Right? Like, I've just not ... I just haven't seen it. Like, "Wow, you've convinced me by attacking me as a person," or "You convinced me by showing me how dumb I ..." Like, the way it is is, like, "There's something different about you.”

Lysa TerKeurst:

Mm-hmm.

Joel Muddamalle:

Like, "You show love and compassion. Even in this area of disagreement, you still have this, like, presence about you —

Jim Cress:

Yep.

Joel Muddamalle:

— "That's welcoming. What is it?" And you're like, "Jesus. It's Jesus." And you're like, "All right, cool. We can work with that.”

Lysa TerKeurst:

That's so good, Joel. Well, thank you for joining us in this rapid-fire question about some really important questions around, as a Christian, how do I respond to these various issues? Thanks so much for joining us.