Therapy and Theology

SHAE HILL:
Welcome to today's episode of Therapy and Theology, where we help you work through what you walk through. I'm your host Shea Hill, and I'm so excited to deliver another episode in this fight for your family season that we've been in. Today you will hear from Lysa Turkers, Dr. Joel Muddamalle, and counselor, Jim Cress, on the topic of communication and boundaries, which will help you fight for the healthiest version of your family relationships, both in your nuclear family and maybe even in your extended family.

SHAE:
As you fight for your family this season, maybe you're inspired to ask a question that sounds something like this. How do I really help the young people in my life who are struggling both mentally and emotionally, if that's you, whether you are a parent. A grandparent or someone who just feels called to help, we're here to help you.

SHAE:
That's why I wanna tell you about the Youth Mental Health Coach program. From the American Association of Christian Counselors and Light University, it is a biblically based, clinically excellent training that equips you with practical real world tools to support youth and their families. You'll learn how to recognize 15 of the most common mental health challenges facing young people today, including anxiety, depression, digital addiction, and emotional regulation.

SHAE:
You'll also learn how to respond with care, when to step in and when to refer to a professional. Right now, you can receive a full tuition scholarship and get started when you pay a one-time $54 technology fee. Friend, this is the training that will give you the confidence to make a real difference. Learn more, and apply at mentalhealthcoach.org. Or you can visit the link in our show notes.

SHAE:
And before we jump in, here are just a few reminders. We are launching a brand new podcast exclusive segment in 2026 called. Listener Mail brought to you by Compassion International. These segments will include a question pulled from one of our listeners just like you, and an answer from either Lysa, Jim or Dr. Joel.

SHAE:
Tune in on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen, and make sure you stay listening all the way through the end so you don't miss this special segment of each episode. And lastly, we want to know how therapy and theology is helping you work through what you're walking through. So leave us a review or a comment on YouTube and tell us all about it.

SHAE:
Okay, now onto today's conversation.

LYSA TERKEURST:
Welcome back to Therapy and Theology. Of course, I am here with licensed professional counselor, Jim Cress. Who is my personal counselor, mentor, and really good friend for a very long time. And Dr. Joel Muddamalle, thank you so much for being here. I really enjoy doing Therapy and Theology, and I'm excited about today's topic.

LYSA:
When we're talking about in this whole season fighting for your family. I think boundaries are an important part of that conversation. Now, we have already done episodes on boundaries, but today I wanna look at a specific aspect of boundaries. They are needed, but when taken too far, they accomplish the opposite of what a boundary is supposed to accomplish.

LYSA:
A boundary is not meant to shove others away. A boundary is meant to help hold ourselves together. It's a communication tool to establish what is and is not okay, what we will and will not accept, what we do and do not have to give. You know, I enjoy the topic of boundaries because I'm always. Learning. I don't approach this topic because I'm an expert at boundaries. Yes, I've written a book, Good Boundaries and Goodbyes. Yes, I've been practicing this because Jim has had many sessions with me about this. Um, but by no means have I mastered the concept of boundaries.

DR. JOEL MUDDAMALLE:
Yeah.

LYSA:
Joel, I know you have a lot to say, especially. When there's a hardship with a boundary.

JOEL:
Yeah.

LYSA:
And that is maybe a boundary within a family is taken too far.

JOEL:
Yeah.

LYSA:
Now please let me establish right from the very beginning in issues that occur inside of family like abuse. Yes. And some of the more severe, toxic things that happen it, it is understandable that sometimes you do have to limit. Strongly limit or possibly even eliminate connection with someone. We understand that. We appreciate that, but what I'm talking about today is when there is tension in a relationship.

JOEL:
Yeah.

LYSA:
And under the name of a boundary, we cut that person off. We get so many letters and dms and emails here of adult, uh, parents of adult children That are just broken hearted because their, um, their children have really taken the boundary to mean that we're gonna cut you out of our lives. Right. And of course, you know, the tears come because not only about that loss of connection, but the loss of connection with our grandchildren.

JOEL:
Yeah.

LYSA:
And, uh, certainly this can also happen in a marriage. And so, Joel, why don't we dive in first to the biblical perspective of boundaries.

JOEL:
Yeah, I mean, I think I would wanna start Lysa and Jim by just saying like, this is one of the reasons why I'm so incredibly grateful for what we get to do. And Lysa, for your vision for therapy and theology, um, we've talked offline before about this, but we do seem to live in an age where the therapeutic world, I would use the phrase, and Jim, you can correct me, we're at times becoming over theorapized. Um. Where there is a perspective of therapy.

JIM CRESS:
Mm-hmm.

JOEL:
That can be hyper human, humanistic, human centered, and this is where the theology part is so helpful. Yes. Because the theology from my vantage point, is a way to rightly order our perspective. We don't want to be, uh, bent in Martin Luther. John Calvin had this phrase in Latin Homo incurvatus in se, which is the heart,

LYSA:
You know, you're gonna have to say that again, right?

JOEL:
Homo incurvatus in se. It is this idea of humanity curved in or bent in upon themselves. And what the Lord wants for us is not a curved in, bent in, which kind of sounds like narcissism doesn't. It does, uh

LYSA:
Or at least self-focused, self preservation at all costs in relationships.

JOEL:
At all costs, no matter what we want to be open in an appropriate way. And so this is where, uh, boundaries I think are really important. Lysa, you wrote a book. Um. Uh, Good Boundaries and Goodbyes. And my first book, uh, the Hidden Peace, there's a chapter in there on humble boundaries because I remember when we're working kind of through all of this, there's this concept in the ancient world that was so fascinating to me.

JOEL:
And guys, when we do Haven Place, uh, events at your house, Lysa, which I absolutely love when we get to do that, we just got done doing one of those events. And I do this as an illustration. I want you to imagine. Somebody who's got an offence, there's an issue and you think, well, I need to establish a boundary.

JOEL:
And you establish a boundary and then you turn to the side and it's like, there's no other. I gotta establish a boundary. And then you turn behind, I gotta establish a boundary. And you do it again. You turn again, I gotta establish a boundary. Well, what did you create? Yeah, you created a prison.

LYSA:
Yeah, that's right. Because it's like four walls.

JIM:
You are right about that.

JOEL:
Yes, exactly. Mm-hmm. And, and then what ends up happening is you think you're setting yourself free and you're equipping yourself, but in fact, what you've done is you've isolated yourself. You've imprisoned yourself, you know? And so, um, I think the ancient world helps us a little bit with this because in the ancient world, uh, of the Old Testament and in the New Testament, every city, it was incredibly crucial for the protection of that city to build walls all the way around that city.

JOEL:
But a city that had walls all around it as just walls. Well, they're barricaded in. So what would the city do? They would establish a gate at the, you know, uh, entry to the city, and then also multiple watch towers on the perimeter. And here's why: the gate allowed the right people to be opened and let in. But the gate also closed when the wrong people were trying to force themselves in. And then the gate was very much connected with the watchtowers because the watchtowers held individuals who their entire job was to look out into the horizon and, and assess the potential for danger or the potential for an ally, something good.

JOEL:
And so for instance, if the Watchmen looked out and said, oh, that's one of our allies, that's one of our friends. They would send a signal back to the town, the gates would open up and everybody inside would begin to prepare maybe a feast or a meal.

LYSA:
It'd be like a celebration.

JOEL:
It would be a celebration.

LYSA:
Like a welcome party.

JOEL:
Exactly.

JIM:
Yeah.

JOEL:
Um, however, if they look and they see enemy banners and they see raiders or something, they're like, close up the gates, get the archers on the. Prep the military, like we gotta protect here. And I think what's happened sometimes is we have, um, unilaterally, almost permanently closed the gates and, um, we don't have anybody manning the watch towers. Uh, and we're not assessing the relationship in a way to determine, hey, have we made progress in an area where we can now in, um, a bit of transparency, honesty, but also wisdom and discernment, open up the gates to assess if there's a relationship that can be built and then act in accordance with what is actually presented to us.

JOEL:
And so the entire idea of boundaries from a biblical theological perspective was always intended to keep us safe, but not to isolate us.

LYSA:
Mm-hmm.

JOEL:
It was to keep us safe, but also to have, um, soft hearts, tender hearts so that we can be open to the possibility of relationship and restoration if possible. The issue is discernment and assessing the situation.

LYSA:
And sometimes it's not possible.

JOEL:
And sometimes it's not possible.

JIM:
It's true.

LYSA:
But I think, Jim, you have some good, um, parameters for us to consider when establishing boundaries, because I do think communication is important. I think it, it's really hard, like in the case of, um, I know there was a, a gal that came to our retreat this weekend. And our retreat was focused on forgiving what you can't forget and with tears streaming down her face. She said they've cut off communication, meaning, um, one of her adult children, they've cut off communication and I don't even know why. Yeah, like they, they, they won't talk to me at all. Like the boundary is no communication, but there wasn't any kind of ramp up to help her or give her a chance to correct whatever she was doing so that, you know, the connection could still stay even if the connection changed.

LYSA:
And so I do see this, and obviously this is nuanced in so many, it is very much different things. Because there are times where you have to go no contact, and I appreciate that. But it doesn't mean that when a necessary boundary is needed, that it's always no communication. You know, we've gotta remember that we've gotta fit it to the scenario that we're in.

JIM:
I find, you know, as we've talked, there is a huge epidemic. It might even be pandemic going on, and many people who have researched it and are studying it. Uh, are finding, we, we may not know exactly what's going on, this pandemic of adult children, shall we call them, but who are adults just cutting off their parents watch, not a boundary, cutting them off, no contract without a reason going, no contract. No contact and really no contract too, hardcore, and I find what they are is they're in the school, the therapy office, or the Church of TikTok and Reddit.

JOEL:
Mm.

JIM:
Literally, they're getting this wisdom, if you want to call it that earthly wisdom where, and I've talked with many and I say, well, help me understand. They think it's a boundary that they're going, they're isolating, they're alienation people, and they're not coming to. Stephen Covey took this from St. Francis Vassi, who took it from the Bible, right? Took it from the Bible. Seek first to understand the other person. Wait a minute before you're understood.

JIM:
And I'll say, well, have you gone to those parents? 'cause it's mainly adult kids cutting off their parents. Have you just, you're ghosting them, whatever. Have you said, here's what goes on, here's the reason that I don't feel safe with that. And someone like, Nope, nope. I've just read an article or whatever. I don't need to explain anything. We're just done. I think they're going to my opinion, pay for that later as parents get older or whatever, but they, they literally will tell me in my office, there's no reason I have to do that. Like, what have your parents done wrong? Well, all parents. I'm a parent and a grandparent. We've done things to hurt our kids.

LYSA:
Mm-hmm.

JIM:
But the idea, so I look through the lens. I ask them, Christian people look through the lens of practicing, not just believing, but practicing agape love of seeking the other person's highest good. Are you willing to be able to say with a boundary, Hey. Can we talk about this? We've said, are you open to a thought with parents and say, here are some things.

JIM:
It does come a lot out of the therapy world where people have done deeper story work and saying, Hey, I'd say never go to your parents. All my clients never go there with a ball bat or a judgment finger to come in and say, are you open to me sharing some things from childhood that were hard? Oh, there's three parents on this podcast right now. Nobody wants the yay. I want my kid to come and say some areas I missed.

JIM:
But they're coming in, as I say, be curious, not furious. And the parents, they just dive in. The parents versus saying, are you open to it? And if so, we know from Romans 12:18, don't we as much as is possible. As far as it depends on you live at peace with all people there often I found no compassion even or mercy upon the parents and say Okay. And giving them a chance to say, yeah, I could see that that was something I missed in childhood or whatever else. These, what, what a lot of these adults who are children, uh, to their parents, they're reacting, they're not responding.

LYSA:
Okay. So let,

JIM:
They're in reactive mode.

LYSA:
Let me play devil's advocate here for a little bit.

JIM:
Please.

LYSA:
Okay, so let's say that I'm the child and you are the adult parent.

JIM:
Mm-hmm.

LYSA:
And. Um, I'm exhausted. Like I'm absolutely exhausted by a behavior that this adult parent has done. Like I'm,

JIM:
Whether it's childhood or current, right?

LYSA:
Yes. Yes. Okay. It's like, well, every time I'm around my parent, they are so critical, I just can't take it anymore.

JIM:
Mm-hmm.

LYSA:
Or every time I'm around my parent, they tell me how I should be parenting and they embarrass me in front of my spouse. They embarrass me in front of my children and they make me feel belittled. Or every time I'm around my parent, they love…

JIM:
Fill in the blank.

LYSA:
Fill in the blank. Right. Okay. So we have this dynamic going on. So now as a therapist, what, what can you say to me? Like, how can I still keep my boundary, but not continue to put myself in a situation that has already over and over and over, exhausted me, frustrated me. And honestly, it doesn't bring out the best in me. Now, I don't have the situation with my parents, so I feel like I'm a safe one to do this.

JIM:
Many have that I've worked with.

LYSA:
Yes. So tell me now. As a, as a therapist, like help me think through, because I'm sure there are listeners who will listen to this and go, yeah, but you don't understand the dynamic I'm in with my parents.

JIM:
All the time. And I may not understand it, so hang on folks. Don't get ahead of me, 'cause if you get ahead of me, you'll go, what just happened? And the simple answer is, obey the word of God.

LYSA:
Hmm.

JIM:
What is he talking about? Joel backs me up on this as a great theologian. We've talked about it here. Honor your father and your mother. And the Hebrew idiom there, at least at one level is you honor what's honorable. So inside

LYSA:
And that's not you saying that you have to honor what's dishonorable.

JIM:
No, you nev- that's actually dishonoring them. Agape love is.

JOEL:
Yeah.

JIM:
To see that person in a moment. So, pardon me here as I say this, to see them with an emotional and maybe spiritual dementia. And that's a Jim-ism I use with people to think their thinking, including theologically big, uh, as far as bitterness or some other issue going on is going on. I wanna look through a lens of, okay, and then we've said, you got a whole bestselling book on. It is a boundary without a consequences of meres suggestion. So I want people to come in humble and say, mom and dad, children explain,

LYSA:
Adults inform

JIM:
Adults inform. I'm gonna let you know. That if you want us, here's the consequence for us to come be around you.

JOEL:
Yeah.

JIM:
If we're gonna be around you, and if you begin to give unsolicited advice to me as a parent, or go over me and correct, which has happened in our family, some things I know this one to go over me and correct my grandchildren. Our grandchildren in front of them, or give unsolicited advice or mouth off and make certain comments that are derogatory or whatever else. You will lose, which we've said a bunch. You're not gonna get, I'm not giving you level 10 access to me with what I still call level one accountability. No accountability. I don't have to shake you or. Uh, give you a book and I'll say, if you do this, if this, then that. Then you're gonna lose access to me and don't fire off a bunch of verbiage at ‘em.

JIM:
And then you gotta put it into practice and then they're gonna judge you with your other siblings. And say, and they call themselves Christians, but to say, if you do any of these things that are toxic, lemme speak to that real quickly on one end to have clear boundaries. Because when someone shows you who they are

JOEL:
Believe them.

JIM:
Believe them. The other end is to give mercy. Give parents a chance.

JOEL:
Yeah.

JIM:
This pandemic of writing them off and to say, Hey, there's some things from childhood. Are you open to talk about it? Got a full stop real quick. You've been sitting there in therapy. Good. Good job. Or listening to Joel and Theology and many good sermons. And you, you've dealt with all this stuff and your parents haven't looked at any of it. So you come in with 10 FBI files to your parents and work you've done prepared. They're not prepared.

JOEL:
Right.

JIM:
So to come in with agape love and compassion and be able to say, here's some things. And if they say give them a chance to react, and they go, we don't believe that, and all like that, or that's not what happened. Pull back. And then you come in and this is how I land it. I don't know how it's gonna land here. Give yourself permission to stay in relationship with parents. Now if it's toxic, ongoing abuse or they sexually abused you in childhood, Jimbo's never gonna say, get in the room with a perpetrator.

JOEL:
Right.

JIM:
But inside, here's how I teach it, isn't this fancy? Give yourself permission to talk about news, weather, and sports. Uh, the storm here in Charlotte, everybody's talking about the weather right now.

JOEL:
Right.

JIM:
I can meet them at that level.

JOEL:
Right.

JIM:
And say, I'll meet you there. And people say, well, that's fake. It's not fake. That may be as good as it gets. It's one of the dangers of the therapy and theology field. That we know all this data and this experience and we've changed in Jesus, and we come to those people who are like. They don't get it.

JOEL:
Yeah.

JIM:
So I'll give myself, we're gonna probably talk at this high level. We'll never go deep, and you get to decide if that's the only level you can connect on.

JOEL:
Jim, I, I think there's a couple things I would love from a, like, I would love want to interact with you on a theology and therapy kind of conversation here. So, one, we, Lysa brought this up, was that thing about honor. You know?

JIM:
Yeah.

JOEL:
And that famous passage like, we'll honor your parents. I've been so interested in how our English words have taken on so much baggage 'cause when we hear the word honor, there is a definition that is much longer, that is running in our brains. And it might be a really good exercise. Uh, I do this with forgiveness. When you say forgiveness, what do you actually mean?

JIM:
Yeah.

JOEL:
Like write out a long paragraph definition of what forgiveness actually means to you When we say honor your parents, what does honor actually mean to you? And what you'll probably find out is you've got some definitions of that word that are incongruent with what the Bible actually teaches. And it's not that you have to throw the baby out with the bath water, you have to exercise discernment in order to determine what is right and true, and then surgically remove those things that are unhelpful and untrue as part of it so that you can get back to the truth of scripture.

JIM:
By the way, number one thing I hear tracking with you both. Number one thing I hear when people say, do that very exercise, what do you mean by honor? Anecdotally, or they'll speak it. They think it means obey.

JOEL:
That's exactly what I was gonna say.

LYSA:
Yeah.

JIM:
Oh wow.

JOEL:
That's exactly what I was gonna say is honor, biblical, honor, particularly with adult to, you know, adult children and parents, does not, it's not synonymous, synonymous with or equates to obedience.

JIM:
Yeah.

JOEL:
Think about Daniel and the king.

LYSA:
Mm.

JOEL:
Daniel honors the king and postured tone.

JIM:
Beautiful

JOEL:
Um, and yet there's an ordered allegiance.

JIM:
Yeah.

JOEL:
Daniel's highest allegiance is to Yahweh, and because of that he has to make actions and congruency with what his ordered allegiance. And then the other thing, Jim, that you're talking about is my concern at times with the therapy deal is at times you go through all that work. Right. Um, I'm thinking about, um, a friend who's, who's walking through something, um, right now and um, and it almost feels like boundaries are end up becoming used as, um, like a tactic to hold the other person hostage, you know, to almost like negotiated terms.

JIM:
Totally. It's a lot of power in that.

JOEL:
Yeah. And then the goal isn't. Mono. It's not dialogue, it's monologue. It's like I'm gonna speak at you and as I speak at you, because I've done all my therapy work and I've done the intensives and, and I've got the FBI file agents like you had described. Right. And you come and bring it to the conversation. The expectation maybe of the parents is not progressive sanctification.

JIM:
Yeah.

JOEL:
But perfection.

JIM:
Good.

JOEL:
Right? Mm-hmm. And that to me feels like a disastrous kind of environment, because I think of Chaz, what Chaz taught us, uh, at least me. And I know he's, I said it to you, Lysa, and it has just plagued my mind ever since he said it. Um, from AA, like if it takes you eight miles in, it's gonna have to take you eight miles out.

LYSA:
Mm-hmm.

JOEL:
And I can't help but think about people who want to get helipaded out. They want to get, you know, um, rescued out. But then if you do the eight miles out. You haven't made progress. You're just in the starting spot.

JIM:
Well put.

JOEL:
So from a compassion standpoint and, and an empathy standpoint, it's like, Hey, amazing adult children. I'm talking to myself like, we've done some really incredible work. Now we have to regain perspective as we are opening up a dialogue with parents of, of recognizing we've done some work, this might be 20 years, 30 years, 40 years of patterned behavior. Um, and so Jim, like how do we navigate that from a boundary standpoint where I think at times we're thinking, I need, I need this list of like negotiated terms, like a hostage in order for me to even come back. Is that fair?

JIM:
Yeah.

JOEL:
Is that how it should be?

JIM:
I think, and this is not news to us, boundaries then become bullying. You can absolutely bully people with that. And in that, again, if we were sitting here and we were saying, let's go prepare for a half marathon, which my whole family, we did two of them, we really did, and I completed and I have them.

JOEL:
That's awesome, Jim.

JIM:
I know, hard to believe. But if you do that and people say you've, you've prepared for this half marathon, and you go to your adult parents. In this example and you asking them to go to Couch, you know, they call it couch to half marathon.

JOEL:
Mm-hmm.

JIM:
That's ridiculous. And we've got all this stuff. We have a written contract, we've done all this therapy. I know I've just stated that, but I don't wanna restate it. And to come in, it's just quite frankly, unfair. I think it's very Christ-like to go and almost choke, hold them and say, you better do this and do this, and you've read 50 books on it. But to go in and be curious again, not furious, and offer an olive branch inside the net result will be the same, Lysa, because it will come down to go. The person says, we're never owning any of that. That's not me.

JIM:
You know, I've shared with you my three Gs in this. Don't grovel to a person. That means you get little and walk on eggshells, not eggs. Good job. It's a private joke. Don't grovel. Get real little in front of mom and dad or somebody else or a spouse. Don't grandstand, which you get big and you come in armed with five volumes of books and whatever. Don't grovel. Don't grandstand, but be grounded as a healthy adult. Grounded in Jesus, in the word of God and some good therapy. But to be grounded often requires a third, a fourth G, which is grief. And sometimes it's like people are doing all these bullying, not boundaries, because they're not gonna deal with their grief of you wake up one day, many have and go now I've realized I came on too harsh and my parents are dead. You don't get those days back.

LYSA:
Yeah. So I like to go back. Uh, you've taught me this Joel law of first mention, like where's the first time that we see a boundary mentioned or pictured in the Bible? And so of course that takes me right back to Genesis chapter two, where the first recorded conversation between God and man was, of all the topics God could have chosen. Yeah. He picked the subject matter of a boundary.

JOEL:
Yeah.

LYSA:
This is fascinating to me. So obviously boundaries are important.

JOEL:
Yeah.

LYSA:
And so the way that God establishes that boundary I think is so important. And the way that God establishes, he says to Adam, you are free. So there's this freedom aspect. In other words, boundaries help establish where freedom exists so that in those boundaries we can run free. Right? That we're not always so pit up and anxious and like, can I step over here? Can I step over there? So God says you are free to eat from any tree in the garden.

LYSA:
God is not being overly restrictive. He's not being manipulative.

JOEL:
Yep.

LYSA:
He's not even being controlling. He says, you're free to eat from all these trees, right. Just not this tree.

JOEL:
Yeah.

LYSA:
It's in the middle of a garden and it's the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And here comes the consequence, and if you do, then you will die.

JOEL:
Die.

LYSA:
So do you see how God's not using that boundary to control another person, manipulate another person? He's actually giving the boundary for the sake of the relationship and for the sake of establishing what Adam can do.

JOEL:
Yeah.

LYSA:
And I think it's interesting then if you go over to Genesis three, when the enemy is quoting back to Eve

JIM:
Classic

LYSA:
Did God really say listen to how the enemy flips the script, the enemy says in Genesis three to Eve, did God really say you must not?

JOEL:
Mm-hmm.

LYSA:
The first three words, God said, you are free.

JOEL:
Yeah. But the enemy twist it and says

JIM:
So good.

LYSA:
You must not.

JOEL:
Yes.

LYSA:
And so I think sometimes we've gotta watch, you know, our perspective and our heart posture when drawing boundaries. And look, here's, I do not want you to hear me say at all that, you know, if you are dealing with someone with narcissistic personality disorder. If you're dealing with someone who consistently has been emotionally, physically, verbally, um, sexually abusive

JIM:
Mm-hmm.

LYSA:
That, you know, loosen the boundaries and, you know, I'm not saying that.

JOEL:
Right, right.

LYSA:
No, no. But what I am saying is sometimes, if we're honest, sometimes if I'm honest, I'll own this sometimes, if I'm honest. Um. I want boundaries in place because I want to control the other person to make them stop doing something that is more on the level of an aggravation, an inconvenience, a frustration,

JOEL:
Yeah,

LYSA:
An unhealthy pattern. And it's easier for me to avoid the hard conversations.

JIM:
Yes.

LYSA:
By establishing a very strict boundary.

JOEL:
Mm-hmm.

LYSA:
And so I just think it's good to check our heart posture.

JOEL:
Wow.

LYSA:
Because if we're in the camp, you must not. That kind of verbiage, that kind of thought process, I feel like that's exactly where the enemy wants to come in. You know, the enemy's whole tactic is to put something between two to cause a separation, correct?

JOEL:
Yeah.

LYSA:
The enemy wants us to be isolated. The enemy wants us to be separated. The enemy does not want us to fight. For our family, the enemy wants us to partner with him, to fight against our family.

JIM:
Amen.

LYSA:
And so I just think it's good. Take a step back. Take a deep breath. And remember the way that God established a boundary. You're free. You're free. Yeah. You're free to do all of this, just not this. And then here's the consequence. And I feel like that's maybe a good place to land today.

SHAE:
And now it's time for Listener Mail, where we respond to your questions. Today's listener mail is brought to you by Compassion International, which I'm so excited to tell you more about. Compassion is fighting child poverty in powerful, practical ways. Through the work of local churches and the generosity of sponsors like you and me, compassion is releasing children from poverty in Jesus' name.

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SHAE:
Okay, friends, let's hear today's question. This listener asked, what are some good questions to ask if you're wanting to have a check-in with your spouse? I'm gonna pass it off to Lysa TerKeurst to answer this question.

LYSA:
Sometimes in marriages we can become like two ships passing in the night and everything starts to feel a little more transactional and the connection starts to slip. So here's a good way to do a check-in with your spouse. Just some simple questions, nothing incredibly deep or profound, but just to show your spouse that you're thinking about them, that you care about them, and you care about maybe some things that are stressing them right now.

LYSA:
So, first question, what do you need? Next question. What is something I could take off of your plate? How can I pray for you? Is there something that I need to be sensitive about for you right now, and what is something that you haven't been able to get around to doing that maybe I can help with?

LYSA:
And then the last one, I especially love this one. Is there something you love doing that you'd like me to join you with next time? And here's why I really like that last question is because sometimes the things that I enjoy, I gravitate more toward asking my girlfriends because they're more, I guess you could kind of say girly things. Um. But then recently Chaz said to me, I know you often like to do that with your girlfriends, but what would you think about you and I doing that together?

LYSA:
And it, I, my heart was so full of joy when he asked that question because I love to go thrifting with my girlfriends. And I wouldn't say that that is ever on the top of Chaz's list. He loves to surf. He loves. To fish. He loves to work in the yard, but I've never had Chaz wake up one morning go, you know what I'd really love? I'd love to go thrifting with you today. But when he, he noticed that I like to do that because I was doing it with my girlfriends often, and then he offered to go with me, not because it's something that he particularly enjoys, but because he knows it matters to me. Man, that spoke such love, such care, and such connection to my heart. So, always good to take a time to do a little check-in with your spouse.