Therapy and Theology

Shae Hill: Hi friends, welcome back to the Therapy and Theology podcast brought to you by Proverbs 31 Ministries, where we help you work through what you walk through. I'm your host, Shay Hill, and I'm so grateful that you're listening today. This season, we're having honest conversations about the painful reality of divorce. And each episode is inspired by the upcoming release of a new book called Surviving an Unwanted Divorce, written by your favorite voices on the Therapy and Theology podcast, Lysa, Dr. Joel, and Jim. Our first two episodes really laid the foundation for the rest of these conversations because we went deep into the Bible, taking a look at what scripture says and doesn't say.

If you missed those, make sure you go back and listen. I know I'm not supposed to have favorites here, but this episode might be my favorite of this entire season. I think it just has something for every single person, every single listener, no matter what they're going through, and it has a perfect combination of inspiration and application. So I hope you love today's conversation as much as I do. Without further ado, let's jump in.

Lysa TerKeurst: Today we're gonna talk about a maddening question that's likely circulating in your mind if you've ever walked through the death of your marriage. Why was I not good enough for him? And if it's not that specific question that lingers within you, it could be what could I have done differently? Or how did I miss this? When you've experienced an unwanted divorce, those are the kind of thoughts that ruminate in your mind. So we wanna talk about how to really take your thoughts captive today. But before I do that, let me introduce Jim Cress and Dr. Joel Muddamalle. We were just laughing because we've known each other 10 years and I've been mispronouncing your last name.

Joel Muddamalle: It's all good.

Lysa TerKeurst: Thank you. Thank you for your grace. All right, so today I want to share something that I wrote in our new book, Surviving an Unwanted Divorce. Each of us has things about ourselves that we wish were different. I'm not gonna dignify those nagging thoughts, those negative statements that we make about ourselves by listing them here. I know what mine are, and I suspect you know what yours are too. It can seem so logical to think that if those things about us were different, that our marriages would have turned out differently. And while I'm all about working to become the healthiest version of ourselves, it is not helpful to mentally beat ourselves up and reduce our worth down to the sum total of our flaws or even flaws that someone else has pointed out in us. Sometimes it's not just the insecurities that we feel, it's like I just said, the negativity spoken over us that feels like a confirmation of our worst thoughts about ourselves. Our own insecurities trickle in and out of our thought life, but then someone whose opinion really matters to us, voices that same negativity over us and suddenly it becomes almost like a cemented belief in our minds that we hold about ourselves. Then when other hard situations occur, we circle back to this faulty belief that we have about ourselves and see their statement as further proof that we are indeed not enough or even worse, that we really are the crazy broken wife not worth staying for and not worth fighting for. So I wrote that in our new book, Surviving and Unwanted Divorce, because I have sat with so many women who are stuck in a situation where a line has been spoken over them, probably by their soon to be ex-husband or ex-husband. It's something that he spoke over them, and that line that he spoke over them becomes a lie that they start to believe, which then they... take that lie in and they label themselves and those labels can then become a liability for all future relationships, whether it's family relationships, friendships, or certainly if they try to move on in another romantic relationship. So I wanna really talk about our thoughts and. I think it's also really important because the word crazy gets thrown around a lot. I hear crazy ex-wife, she was acting crazy, she was doing crazy things, she's been accused that she is crazy because uh she accused me of things, which later we find out that the things that she was accusing him actually were true, probably even worse. So I wanna turn to first you Joel, and let's talk about what the Bible says that we're supposed to do with our thoughts. and let's give a fresh take on an old passage that a lot of us are very familiar with.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah, absolutely. So if you've read your Bibles, let's turn to 2 Corinthians chapter 10. Before we get into that, I just want to point out kind of a bigger biblical theological idea. And the biblical idea is, which by the way, uh Jim and Lysa, who named you guys?

Lysa TerKeurst: My parents.

Joel Muddamalle: Your parents, right? So the interesting thing is that our parents name us. know, it wasn't like as a baby, you're like, I didn't like that name. That's the name that you were given. And there's a biblical precedent that's given throughout the scriptures that God is the one who names us. And there's this fascinating story in the book of Ruth where you've got Naomi and Ruth and Naomi tries to name herself. And she says that I'm bitter because of all these things that have happened to me. My name is Mara because I'm so bitter. But the problem is that she has named herself something that is incongruent with what God's desire is for her. So I want to kind of set the page, I want to set the scene with that, to affirm what Lysa has just said, that some of you may have some names and some labels that you have been living out of, and yet we're the children of God, and children don't get to name themselves. God is the one who names us. And if we're living by any labels that are incongruent, with what God has called us, we must not do so. And I love what 2 Corinthians 10 actually does for us, specifically in verses four through five, because it gives us a very tangible and practical way for us to essentially move from the labels that we've been living from into the truth of who God is and what God says about us. So let's read the text. In 2 Corinthians 10, starting in verse 4, Paul is kind of talking about weapons and warfare, and he starts in verse 3, for although we live in the flesh, we do not wage war according to the flesh. Since the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but are powerful through God for the demolition of strongholds, we demolish arguments and every proud thing that is raised up against the knowledge of God, and we take every thought captive to obey Christ.

And you've probably heard that idea, well, don't you know, you're just supposed to take every thought captive to Christ. Just take every thought captive to Christ. And I don't know about you guys, but sometimes I'm kind of like, great, now what in world does that mean?

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah, and also when you're in the middle of something that's very heartbreaking and you're already just feeling the height of insecurity and vulnerability, it's so hard to not just hear something someone speaks of us and not just go, yeah, I'm just in agreement with that because I'm so heartbroken. I can't even fight against it, you know? And so I know, Jim, you have even said before that this is one of the number one Bible verses you quote in counseling, and there's a reason for that, right?

Jim Cress: There is because so much of the thoughts that people are having psychology, which isn't bad, would say they practice cognitive behavioral therapy, or what we call thought stopping. And that's good to say, I'm not thinking about that, or call that's a lie. But the second part of verse five here, the 2 Corinthians chapter 10, is to take the thought captive, but make it obedient to Christ and his truth. Martin Luther put it this way, I can't keep the thought birds from flying over my head, but I can keep them from making a nest in my hair, so it's very practical. And then backing up to four, as you've already shared with us, is we're really actively demolishing strongholds that are going on, and whether it's as we've talked off camera, a little bit on camera and on audio, what's there between a mental health, mental illness, and something that could be a spiritual warfare issue? I sometimes they're all mixed in there together. But if Satan can get me, and through whatever means he does, where I'm sometimes not even being directly attacked by him, but utilize that I'm in self-defeating thoughts that are going on. I'll never change, he'll, she'll never change, what if this is as good as it gets?

Sometimes we put this in the book, what I call the itty bitty pity committee. It can be in there going on in what's called negative neuroplasticity. Positive neuroplasticity we want, even being transformed by the renewable minds, but the negative neuroplasticity is literally. developing a rut after a while, I don't even know what my thoughts are, Lysa and Joel, to take them captive. I'm just in a cacophony of voices or spinning thoughts, kind of a type of vertigo, I'll often call it. And I don't even know what the thoughts are. How can I make them obedient to Christ?

Joel Muddamalle: I think that's so good.

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah, and I mean, I just wanna speak very, very candidly, vulnerably to you. If you've been in a situation where... your spouse or ex-spouse has betrayed you, lied to you over and over, gaslit you, spoken things that needed to be part of his narrative about you to justify his behavior. I just want to encourage you by saying, why in the world would you let the very person who has probably lied to you the most be any kind of a voice of truth in your life? And so Joel, you have a very practical thing that we can do when it says, our thoughts captive, because like you, I am sure you have just experienced how hard this is. It sounds like a great spiritual principle, but how do we make it a practical thing that we can actually apply in our life?

Joel Muddamalle: Absolutely, so we actually wrote this. This is found in our upcoming book, Surviving an Unwanted Divorce, and it's based off of this verse, but it's three movements. And so if you want to take some notes here, the three movements, the first thing that we have to do is we've got to tear down. The second thing that we have to do is we've got to capture. And then the third thing that we have to do is we have to conform. Now, each three of these things is actually rooted in 2 Corinthians 10, verses four through five. And once again, When we're reading the Bible, the Bible has a context behind it. And when Paul talks, like right off the bat, at the end of verse four, when he says, or verse five, and every proud thing that is raised up against the knowledge of God, look at the spatial reality of this. So you've got this thought, you've got this idea, you've got something that somebody has said about you, and that thing has been raised up. And if we just from a spatial standpoint think about what's happening, we're in a position of kind of compromise here. Because the thing is up high, then we're down low. I'm a nerd, you guys know this, and I know you put up with my nerdyness, so I thank you for that. But have any of you ever seen the Star Wars movies?

Jim Cress: Of course.

Lysa TerKeurst: Yes.

Joel Muddamalle: Okay. So there's a scene in the Star Wars movie with uh Anakin Skywalker before he becomes Darth Vader and Obi-Wan Kenobi in this big like lava situation. They're in this like epic battle scene. And at one point Anakin is at the bottom and uh Obi-Wan is at the top and Obi-Wan who's his mentor, right, says, you've lost Anakin. I have the high ground. And Anakin at that point should have been like, oh, okay. But instead he decides to attack. from the low ground, and when he attacks from the low ground, Obi-Wan basically cuts off his arm, it's this whole devastating situation, and it's the start of the spiral that becomes Darth Vader. Now, that's a military context. Well, guess what? 2 Corinthians chapter 10, verses four and five is a military context. The Romans and the Greeks, they knew very well that whoever has the high ground has the opportunity to win. So the first thing that you and I have to do is we have to tear that thing down from on top. We have to... take things that are high and lofty and we have to replace them with something else. And so the question is, what do we replace those things with? We have to replace them with the truth of God's Word.

Lysa TerKeurst: And how do we know something has been placed up high? Is it that because we're like saying it over and over or thinking about it over and over or using that statement as some kind of determination of our worth, our value? how we are, who we are, all of that.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah, so think about it. If that thing is up high, we're low, and we, in a sense, are being conformed to that thing. That's the thing that is actually dictating our steps. That's the thing that is informing our decisions. That's the thing that is manipulating our emotions in a way.

Lysa TerKeurst: And we may even have to have someone else, like a trained therapist or a good friend, to help us recognize those lies. Because I know for myself, you know, when I said, why would you let the person who's lied to you the most become a voice of truth in your life. You know, I wanna make sure you hear that very, very, very tenderly because that happened to me. And I had all kinds of things that had been spoken over me. I couldn't even recognize them in myself, but my friends could call those out and they could say, no, Lysa, that actually isn't the truth about you. Here's what we have experienced with you. And that was like, cracking that door open for me to even recognize I have put a thought in a high and lofty place. And it's no longer a thought, it's a belief now. And so now not only do I have to tear it down, but I have to work to make sure that that is not a belief that I hold onto. Otherwise I can tear it down, I'm gonna put it right back up.

Joel Muddamalle: Yes.

Lysa TerKeurst: You know and so it has to be recognized as a lie not something we believe but it's a lie and then we tear the lie down.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah, so an example this happened just a couple weeks ago. My daughter MJ She's five years old She had come to my office at home and was knocking on the door and my boys know that when dad's working that you can't bother him so when my boys come and knock on my door, I do what every good parent does. I ignore them.

Jim Cress: I thought you were gonna say yell.

Joel Muddamalle: No, no I ignore but when Emmy comes she's like lower side no she's tiny and so she's not gonna the bottom and I'll try to ignore and then she'll start to say Dada it's me your daughter, and I'm like well What am I supposed to do get up and open the door right and she comes in she's so upset and she sits in my chair And she says Dada. I'm so dumb. I said baby. Why'd you say that you're not in her debt? I'm so dumb. I can't do the unicorn puzzle, and I was like What unicorn but you want me to tear that thing up? Let's go burn it, you know, like I'm ready and she's like I'm so done I was like no, baby, but you're not dumb like you are smart and you're brilliant and you're doing something that's really hard and guess what you're going to become resilient as the process and then he looks up and she goes That out what is resilient? I don't like okay five-year-old and I think uh it just means you can do hard things But you're gonna become better in the process, you know, and so I just want to share like okay. That's an example of exchanging tearing down, you gotta tear down the thing, and you gotta replace it with something else. And we have to replace it with truth. And so you might have had phrases that were said about you in a marriage or in a relationship. Maybe it's a parental situation. Phrases like you're so dumb, or you're gonna become an alcoholic just like your father, or --

Jim Cress: Those are curses that feels like being spoken over.

Joel Muddamalle: I mean, my goodness, right? And then we begin to live by it, and it impacts our decisions, like when we're trying to apply for a job, and we're like. I'm just a loser. I'm never going to make it. You know? Well, that's going to mess with you. And so what we have to do here, part of tearing down is exchanging that thing that we tear down with the truth of the gospel. And so this is why uh we just really care about God's word here in Therapy and Theology. And this is why this is Therapy and Theology. And in fact, we've said before that the Greek word that comes from the English word therapy, theropio, it means recovering wholeness. And to recover wholeness, it has in mind both body, mind, and your soul, your spirit, you know? And so, this is what we're doing with the Scriptures. We want to know the Scriptures so we can turn there. And if you need some help on where to get started with some of these Scriptures in surviving an unwanted divorce, we've got an index of Scriptures that are so helpful to be able to start there. But that's the first thing. You've got to tear it down. Now, the second thing is you've torn it down. You've exchanged it, right? But the second thing is you have to capture. You have to capture that thing that was so destructive. might be wondering like, Joel, why? Because once again, in the Greco-Roman world of this time period, whenever you would capture an enemy, you wouldn't just capture the enemy and then just release them. Because what are they gonna do? They're gonna come back and try to take you over. That's right. So what you do is you capture the enemy, and then you go ahead and you put the enemy in prison. And you lock him up, and you walk away. This is an act of safety. And so one of the things that we can do is, it might just be a good -- and Jim, I'm really curious from a therapeutic standpoint, but it might be a really good thing to visualize yourself taking that thought that negative thing that negative situation circumstance and just like a prisoner of war saying you've been captured you have been brought down from your height and now I'm gonna walk you right into jail I'm gonna put you there and I'm gonna close that door I'm gonna lock the key take the key with me and now I'm safe and secure and I can walk away into the truth of what Christ says about me and not be burdened by the false narrative of what has been said over me.

Jim Cress: Here's a practical one or two that I use. We ever happened to fly together, we did once, remember? I had my grandkids last year in Dallas. I'm there with my three grandsons on the plane.

Joel Muddamalle: Man, they thought you were a rock star. They don't care, they're like, who's that guy? There's Joel.

Jim Cress: But if you walk in behind me 100 % since an anxiety attack on an airplane in 2014. When I'm walking down the connector that leads into the plane every time, I'm going to get ahead of everybody, because I can with American Airlines, uh and I will stop and I will bend my knees just a little bit with my bags right beside me and say, anxiety, if you at any level try to attack me on this plane, I claim right now this verse, you will bow to the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ. uh immediately, so if you come in and try to scare me on this plane, which these days rarely happens, I mean there's been so much healing, then I announce you will bow immediately to the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, the authority of Christ. The other one is I've done, I have a cross that's in my office. um It's the biblical cross my wife's uncle made out of wood because it doesn't have a tall top on it, right? And I've said with many of the people I'm privileged to work with, I said I want you to catch that thought, I'd have them do hand motions. Catch the thought, right, if it's here, but take that thought captive, and then I'll walk right over to the cross and say, make it obedient to Jesus. So I want people to, it's kind of like Nehemiah 5:7 we've said many times, and so I took counsel with myself to say, I literally do a hand motion, I do that. I grab that thought and say you will bow and just put it down here to the Lord Jesus Christ, for you have the word of God. You will bow to the authority of Jesus, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but do something, you're going to bow right now to that versus a lot of people, those thoughts are quiet, they're intrusive, they're not loud. We couldn't put a microphone at a decibel level and see what sound, what quality of volume they have, but inside, when you speak and it does vibrate your body, these microphones that we're wearing, I'll be careful not to hit it, they're picking up bass resonance in our chest, right? The microphones, they're amplifying what's there, so I tell people, start talking out loud to these thoughts. I refuse that thought, I use that also in this passage. That thought is a lie. You are from the father of lies, Satan, not the father of lights. You will bow to the father of lights. But more than just thinking, I should think that, I try to have people activate their body by speaking, literally vibrating their body.

Lysa TerKeurst: That's so good. You know, another thing besides just thoughts and labels that we put on ourselves is sometimes when we walk through and unwanted divorce, there's a narrative. Yeah. Like a uh narrative about the marriage that gets rewritten to justify the actions of maybe the partner that's having that affair or the partner that is financially betrayed or the partner that's emotionally abusive or verbally abusive. And so, You know, one of the ones that I had to really work on and I had to, I know that I want my truth to line up with the facts of the situation. Like the actual events that I can point to to go, okay, this isn't just my truth, that's my opinion, what I want the narrative to be. But it lines up with the facts of what was actually experienced. But one of those that was so hard is, you know, we were in a loveless marriage, or we got married too young, or, you know, I never really um loved you, or, you know, whatever. Just like all these, like, it's revising history. And I literally had to pull out my scrapbooks, and I had to go back, and I had to look at pictures. And here's where I landed with that. And it is still taking a thought captive. But it's a little bit different than just a label you put on yourself. And I had to say, you know what? I was authentically a loving wife. And this picture right here, there was no lie in me. There was no lie. Like I wasn't hiding anything. I wasn't doing anything. I really was trying to honor my marriage and honor my husband and take good care of my kids. And so I decided that you know, that picture of me was fully the truth, therefore my side of the street lined up with facts. And so, I've had to take some of those negative narratives, revisionist history, if you will, and I've also had to take those thoughts captive and make them obedient to Christ. Like, literally, tear it down, take it captive, and then what's the last step?

Joel Muddamalle: To the last one. You guys actually have brilliantly just modeled what the last step is. So it's tear down, capture, the last step is conform. um And this is the one that's like, take every thought captive, but we want to be conformed to the mind of Christ. I was sitting in a event, a conference one day, and there was an interview with a like top level sports psychologist. And he said something so fascinating to me, or to all of us. And he said, you know, there's a difference between the top level athletes and elite level athletes. And he'll say actually all that is at some level from a physical standpoint had the same skill set The difference between top-level athletes and elite athletes is their mental fortitude. And so he would talk about like the fact Jim you alluded to it and you know use the Luther quote but it's like you actually can't stop and this might be a freeing thing for some of you actually can't stop physically the maybe the thought the negative thought that comes into your into your mind, right? It's like a bird that's flying -- But what you can do is respond to it. And so the question is how do you respond to it? So the sports psychologist, said one of the things that he teaches his people is like, well, what is the thing that you say to yourself that is that negative thought? And that thing is like, I'm going to miss the free throw or I'm going to not make the pass. I'm not going to hit right. And he'll say, well, when you said it in your brain, that's a one time factor. So you have to combat the one time factor with the two time factor. What's the two time factor? The two time factor is what you heard in your mind. You've got to cancel out with what you say. So now you heard I am a loser, right? And now how you are conformed to the image of Christ is you say, I'm a daughter of the King of heaven and earth.

Jim Cress: I hope you say it out loud.

Joel Muddamalle: And you must actually, that is the second part of the two time factor because the one time factor you heard it in your mind, the negative thing, but the two time factor one, you've said it out with your mind. So you've heard, I'm a loser, right? But you say no. I am the daughter of the King of heaven and earth.

Jim Cress: So now you're quoting scripture too.

Joel Muddamalle: You're quoting scripture, you're saying it out loud, and you're hearing yourself say it. So this is how you actually become conformed. And this is really that last step is to be conformed into the image and likeness of Christ is to memorize the scriptures. It's to go through the Bible and to really make it a part of you. One of the passages of scripture that I memorized so early on is John chapter one, the long section there, the beginning was the word, the word is with God, the word was God. Through him all things were made. Without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life and the life was the light of man. And like I'm just so grateful that I memorized that because when things are falling apart in my life, oh I go, in the beginning was the word. The word is with God and the word was God. Through him all things were made. And without him nothing was made that has been made. And so then I would go, oh, things are falling apart in my life, but God is holding it together. Like there's a singular reason right now that you and I can breathe. There's a singular reason why we don't just float away into the gravity. There's a singular reason why the earth isn't scorched up by the sun. There's a singular reason why the moon doesn't collapse into the earth, and that singular reason is Christ Jesus. He's holding all things together. And the more that we exercise this conforming, I think what's going to happen is the distance between the negative thought and our process to get to healing over time. will shorten and shorten and it's like muscle memory.

Jim Cress: The brain research absolutely proves that. That's that true healthy neuroplasticity that you're laying new neuro pathways. People do it with a heart bypass. So like this brain bypass and it's like we've got these bypasses. Cities do it with highways down. You can bypass traffic and to go there. So since we are fearfully and wonderfully made, right? In scripture. is to look, our brains are just GPSs saying, what are we doing? These negative toxic thoughts come in from within or somebody speaks them to you, which are lies, which you've just eloquently described. Then I wanna get very active about that, right? And there's a plan, there's literally a linear path of something to do that you've just taken us through. It's so practical, that's why it's probably the number one passage I take, I take people through scripture all the time in my counseling intensives. but it's probably the number one passage that I use because there's so much meat in it. And people are like saying, how do I change my thinking? What about these other naysayers like Sam Ballant, Tobiah, Nehemiah saying, you've got a program here, you've got a plan laid out in two verses.

Lysa TerKeurst: And why is this so important, not just for our spiritual growth, but also our emotional healing? Why is it so important? Because we will steer where we stare.

Jim Cress: That's good.

Lysa TerKeurst: I was at a conference one time or I'd flown into a city to speak at a conference and I wasn't great at directions. This was before you could had your phone, GPS, know, whatever. This is when you printed MapQuest.

Joel Muddamalle: Oh, actually remember.

Lysa TerKeurst: So anyhow, we were having problems. couldn't print out the directions. And so it was really important that I follow the person in front of me so that I could get to the conference. And the conference was in a big arena. So I knew what to expect. I knew what to look for. But the most important thing was that I followed the car in front of me. So we get going and there's lots of traffic and I am doing the very best I can. But at one point, a truck pulled in front of me, blocked my view, but thankfully the truck got in another lane and then I was able to catch back up to the car I was following. So as I was following and I'm looking at the clock and we're getting closer and closer to the time where we're supposed to be near the arena, I realize we aren't headed anywhere near the arena, because now we're in a neighborhood. And now we're pulling into a driveway.

Joel Muddamalle: Oh my gosh.

Lysa TerKeurst: So I pull into the driveway and the person driving gets out and I had been following the wrong car since that truck cut in front of me.

Joel Muddamalle: Oh my goodness.

Lysa TerKeurst: So do you see the principle? we will steer where we stare. And if we stare at the wrong lead, that's what happened. When the truck crossed in front of me, I started staring at the wrong car and I followed it all the way. And those people, you know, they pulled into their driveway and turned around. They were just looking at me like, are you and why are you following us? And so I just rolled down my window and said, so sorry, I was supposed to speak at a conference and they're still looking at me like, we don't care what your story is thought of. But that principle of we steer where we steer. And if we keep focusing on these thoughts, either thoughts that we've struggled with or thoughts that are there because someone spoke that over us or whatever it is, we really will, those things really will become liabilities. And we really will take our life in the direction of evidence that we believe that lie. Whereas the other thing is the more we focus on God's Word, the truth of who God says we are, the more we follow his ways and maybe even memorize his Word, we will steer where we stare. And we will, those thoughts, God's thoughts will become bigger and bigger and more magnified and more magnified. And those thoughts are supposed to occupy the high place in our life. We're supposed to lift our eyes up to the truth and to the Lord and to how he sees us as image bearers of Christ. So I'm gonna end today with a statement that my now husband, you know, I have to clarify this. um I'm now remarried to a wonderful man and his name is Chaz. And so I wanna end today by quoting something that Chaz has taught me that I think is a really profound place that we can park today. He says to me, you know, Lysa, I don't have control over my first thoughts, but I do have control over my second thoughts. So the thoughts that come at us, maybe they're just gonna come at us, but then it's our responsibility. What are we going to do? What are we gonna do to take charge of the second thought that comes to us, you know, do we let it in, do we let it dictate our mood, do we let it dictate any future relationship that we might have so we don't have control over our first thought but we do have control over our second thought, what we do about it.

Shae Hill: Thanks for tuning in to today's conversation. Here's a few things I don't want you to miss. First, we want to hear from you and would be so honored if you took the survey you can find by accessing the link in our show notes. Your feedback is crucial for shaping future therapy and theology conversations and experiences. Also, make sure you secure your copy of Surviving an Unwanted Divorce, co-written by Lysa, Dr. Joel and Jim. You can find that link by visiting the show notes as well. Therapy and Theology is brought to you by Proverbs 31 Ministries, where we believe if you know the truth and live the truth, it changes everything. We'll see you next time.