Therapy and Theology

Lysa:
Hi, I'm Lysa TerKeurst. I'm here today with Jim, our counselor and therapist. In our discussion, Jim Cress, he is here in Charlotte, North Carolina, has an amazing practice and actually, he's the counselor I've worked with so much here in Charlotte and really, really appreciate. Then I also have the resident theologian for our conversation today, director of theology with Proverbs 31 Ministries Joel Muddamalle, who I've also worked with, but not in a therapeutic sense, just in studying all of these great principles in the Bible.

So, our last therapy and theology conversation was around narcissism. What is it? Where does it come from? What does it do when it presents itself? And today, I want to almost have Part II of that conversation and talk about what do we do if we are in a relationship with someone who is presenting some narcissistic tendencies? But let's back up first, Jim, and tell the story of where the term "narcissism" or "narcissist" even comes from.

Jim:
Be glad to. It comes from, really, from Greek mythology and there's this guy, Narcissus, who was, to give you the shorter version, looking into a reflecting pool and saw his image and fell in love with that image so much that he could not do anything but stare at his own self, and then he eventually died. And who could be around would be an echo who could only echo what they heard Narcissus say. So a miserable, lonely existence. So it could sound exciting at first, "I get to look at myself in the mirror in the reflecting pool and fall in love with myself," but the end is a tragic, existentially alone death.

Lysa:
And in that story, what was the echo doing?

Jim:
Echoing only what he said, which ties into the feed, the narcissistic feed, the empaths who are there, often we use a word "codependent," that they are there to really be in the dance of or the relationship with a narcissist is, you better be good at echoing what he is saying or she is saying about him or herself and echoing and feeding back is a perpetual mirror, different than the mirror we talked about in the previous podcast while a mother and a baby or even a father and a baby needs, to mirror back basically worship. Thou are worthy, I worship you at all costs. They will always seek an echo.

Lysa:
Joel, in a spiritual sense this brings up all kinds of things, right? Because if you hear that a narcissist needs us to echo back worship, our mind can instantly go, well is God that, right? But I think we have a couple of spiritual things that we must remember about God. He is the only one able to handle worship, because He doesn't do it. He doesn't receive it like a human receives it, and He doesn't do it how a human would do it, right? I've heard this quote before that the human heart is not created for fame, and I would say you could almost say the human heart is not created for worship in that way. So what are your thoughts around that?

Joel:
Augustine, a South African bishop of HIPPO has a famous quote, one of my favorite quotes of his. He says “our hearts are restless until they find their rest in You.” God, in His perfection, one of the first acts that He does is He creates creation, you know? Even the idea of glory and self-glorification is just an interesting upside down way of thinking that God would bring glory to Himself in the creation, His expression of creating all these other things and then He gives the beauty of humanity His own likeness and His own image.

I think we have to understand, there are different categorical ways that we understand each other and God. God is outside of our personal categories. He is perfection, He is the purest form of love that we could ever think of. We might be tempted to think, well is God narcissistic? Does He have these narcissistic tendencies, and it feels not fair. The problem is our actual heart alignments are knocked off kilter. We're trying to define God based off of our faulty definitions versus seeing, well no, we need a reset, our hearts need a reset and we need to see God in perfection based off of His terms and His categories.

Lysa:
I also think you have to remember God did something that a narcissist will not do and that is that God gave humans the choice to love Him or not love Him. A narcissist cannot do that. A narcissist says you must not just love me; you must admire me —

Jim:
Adore me.

Lysa:
If you don't, I will plan my exit so I never give you the chance to exit and that's the opposite of what God does. God says I will give you a choice to love Me, and if you don't, I'll continue to pursue you until your dying breath. I think that's an important distinction and why I feel it's such the ultimate act of humility that God gave humans the choice to love Him or to not love Him and I think that's an important distinction for sure.

Jim:
Don't you think too, I'm going to borrow your words there because I'm going to use these, these are good what you just said. God says that He will pursue people til their dying breath and the narcissist says you'll be in a relationship with me, you better pursue me til your dying breath or you will be cut off.

Lysa:
That's right.

Jim:
It almost mimics God in such a disorder of worship around a narcissism.

Lysa:
I always think too, the giving of our worship to God and keeping in mind that we are made in God's image, to me sometimes I feel like it's almost like lifting up who God is so I can better understand who I am in relation to Him. God, you are faithful, therefore I am safe. God, you have a plan, therefore I don't have to be stuck in fear, you know what I mean? God's worship, we give it to Him but it doesn't end with Him. It comes back on us as the reassurance of because He is, therefore I am. Even in an identity sake because God is the one who created me and He is the one who said I knit you together in your mother's womb. God, You are the creator and You create good, therefore there is good in me that has been created.

Joel:
In fact, while we were working on the Trustworthy study, we actually went through the attributes of God. One of the things I love to do is to actually go through and say what are the attributes of God. God is omniscient, which means He's all knowing. Okay, God, I can trust You — because You're all knowing, I don't have to be all knowing, because You're all knowing. God is omnipresent. He's everywhere at all times. That is a relief; because, God, You're everywhere, I don't need to be everywhere. He's omniscient, He's omnipresent, He's omnipotent. He's all powerful. God, because You're all powerful, I don't have to stress out over the reality of my limited power.

Lysa:
I don't have to try to be so controlling when things feel out of control; I can remember who is in control. Let's get to this thought about, just a reminder that narcissist wounding, which is where the presentation of narcissistic tendencies come out, it presents as pride, but the wounding is actually a deep shame. We talked about that in the previous podcast and I encourage you to go back and listen to that one if you haven't and again I want to remind everybody, we're not talking about this because we want you to suddenly start diagnosing yourself or diagnosing other people, but I do think it's healthy.

In its most base form, at the very end of the spectrum is selfishness and we all have selfishness because it really is, if you think about the wounding of it, it's this emptiness wound. To some extent we can all be like the person that's holding out a cup saying fill me. I think this topic is very interesting to talk about but when that selfishness is taken to a more extreme presentation, you can find yourself in a relationship where someone is making it all about them. At first the relationship feels so thrilling because they're charming and they feel grander than just the basics of life. It is a very seductive thing to get pulled into a relationship with someone who has some of these narcissistic tendencies. What you come to eventually realize is you are there to be a supply of endless adoration and admiration to them. It's a one-way.

Jim:
It is one way and the two types of narcissists that is classically known is covert and overt narcissist. Watch out especially for the covert, because the overt narcissist what you've just described is they can be exciting, they're certainly not boring, seductive and this can feel good up front. People will miss, they'll see that narcissist coming but they'll miss the covert, that's the more overt narcissist. The covert one will be, I didn't see that upfront, they were kind. They might be a doctor they're with, could be a minister, could be someone they're in a relationship with and then suddenly two, three conversations or relationship encounters in, then it becomes more overt. Two classic types of narcissism, overt and covert. The covert often doesn't show up until later and I didn't see this coming.

Lysa:
What is the presentation of that? I said one is the relationship; really you start to understand it's one way toward them and is it that they just don't ask very much about you, or is it that when you need them, they just don't have very much to give?

Jim:
Keep going, you're good.

Lysa:
Right?

Jim:
Part of it, if you'll look, I call it every narcissist has a boomerang mentality. It will come out through you. It feels good, but it's always going to boomerang right back to them. Part of that is it will always be, usually the empath experientially or the echo or the narcissistic supply usually experience it, they don't have a me. I'm not aware of who I am; they don't have a me. I've got this other-centered thing filling myself up because there's a benefit for the feed person, the empath or the codependent person, pick a term. They get a benefit of being in the dance or relationship with the narcissist but the narcissist you'll look for signs and it will always be about him or her always, even when it feels like it's not, just look closely, you want to observe, a lot of observing of the narcissist. It'll always be about that person.

Jim:
A narcissist has never met a boundary that they like or will honor. If you begin to say, no or not this time, watch body language, just a twitch or whatever else. Watch if you don't have in a moment where they might feel, that narcissist, this is a moment, might be a simple moment, that this is a moment that should be all about me and I want to be praised and you don't praise, maybe others are and you don't join in or you're by yourself and you don't praise you'll see the action, reaction or an abreaction sometimes. Lastly inside with that narcissist person, one of the tell-tale signs is, listen for a monologue, not a dialogue. If they're going on, waxing eloquent, and going on, sometimes run a timer and watch metaphorically or literally, they will go on and on in a monologue and you sit there and go this is a one-way conversation. It's not hard, I'm telling you, to spot someone with narcissistic tendencies. They're very much out there. If you watch, not hard to spot.

Lysa:
I would imagine some of the listeners right now would be having a response like me. Oh my goodness, I can instantly recount times that I've been selfish and maybe I've had monologue conversations. Am I a narcissist?

Joel:
Absolutely.

Lysa:
Are you having that thought too, Joel?

Joel:
Literally, Jim?

Jim:
You know what a technical is in sports, you know I'm throwing the yellow football flag. Why? You already know the answer; you both do. Notice the self-awareness that Lysa just talked about. Narcissists are not self-aware. A sociopath can be more self-aware, more calculated. So when you say I'm having the thought and we've already said our disclaimers, we're not here to diagnosis anyone; we're not doing therapy as such on these podcasts. You went to self-awareness. Oh my goodness, is that me? Could I be that? You've already kind of de-rolled as a narcissist because a narcissist is never going to ask that question. Does that make sense?

Lysa:
Whew.

Joel:
That was terrifying, Jim, I'll be honest.

Jim:
Are you better?

Joel:
I feel a lot better now, thanks.

Lysa:
Perfect, well now that we've gotten that settled. [crosstalk 00:16:48] That helps you too. I know if I'm listening to this that's starting to emerge in my head so we just had to settle that.

Joel:
But I am curious, Jim, how does the narcissist or the person with those tendencies become aware of that?

Jim:
You're getting into, which I'm not afraid to go to, the basic, the treatment, or the therapy, or the discipleship or life coaching of a narcissist and part of that is, even in the secular research would be something like dealing with cognitive behavioral therapy, CBT, that's not CBD right? Know your letters. It is to get them to have some level mirroring back to them. I call it, which you've asked me before, Jim, we don't want to feed the narcissist, and Jim, you've talked about you do feed the narcissist. I'm doing that strategically, to know you want to shut the whole thing down with a narcissist, confront them.

Jim:
So I feed them by giving them affirmations and say I'll ask questions like, you're not, but if you were a narcissist, Joel, are you open to a thought? They get to feel the power, you mean I get to respond. They don't want unsolicited advice but I'll compliment them, I'll feed them that way. Part of them to get them on board, that they might literally, as best you can do, feel safe with you and be able to open up and say is this how you want to live? Do you ever feel like the relationship is not working? If I can get them open, I'm not worried about deep character logical change, I'm looking for one degree change that I can build some safety that they'll begin to open up and sometimes if it's just pure strategy to how not to live as a narcissist, that may be all I get, but I'm going to try at least.

Lysa:
One thing to remember, and we talked about this on the last show, is when dealing with a person’s narcissistic tendencies or even narcissistic personality disorder, which again is a mental illness that must be diagnosed and actually a much smaller percentage of the population would qualify as that.

Jim:
About one percent.

Lysa:
In a situation where we are dealing with lots of different people, lots of different personalities, I think it's always important to remember that if you start to pick up that someone has an absolute lack of empathy toward you, that's a big sign. I think if it is apparent that they're always going to push you away before you would ever have the opportunity to reject them, that's another big sign. Let's talk about the work environment. Maybe somebody's in a work environment and they're like, wow, I think I'm in this kind of situation. Here's some of the thoughts that you may have if you are working with a narcissist. Am I crazy? Am I crazy? At first, we talked about how seductive it is to get pulled into a situation with a narcissist but living there long-term, it will start to make you feel crazy. Why is that, Jim?

Jim:
It is quite simply crazy. Narcissists will treat people, this is a classic calling card of a narcissist, they'll treat people as an object, not as a person. We're not wired to be objectified, relationally or any other way, so inside you're there and relationships are built on some level of interaction. It's a one-sided relationship with a narcissist. It is crazy. If you try to be kind and affirm and you get some brownie points thrown your way or they affirm you because again the echo or the supply gets them, we get a little reward there, we've got to be honest about that, in the end we'll realize there's a hole in the narcissist's bucket.

Jim:
He or she will never be filled up and I certainly can't praise them enough and it will always boomerang to be about this person. I feel like we've gotten some dialogue, we've really got some interchange, we don't. It's a monologue and a one way street. I thought it was a bit of a two way street here. It did feel like that for a while. Be aware, it will never be a two way street. So it's crazy making. I thought I had something here, you did, but it wasn't what you thought.

Lysa:
Also in some of the books that I've read, part of the reason you start to feel so crazy is because you start to feel like you are the problem.

Jim:
They want you to be the problem on some level.

Lysa:
At times, that pushing away, if they sense that you're going to question them or if you one-up an idea, I'm thinking in terms of the business meeting.

Jim: No, no. That's a no, no.

Lysa:
They have to do everything they can to absolutely shut you down. They would think nothing of berating you publicly in a meeting where you walk out and feel absolutely cut down to zero. Suddenly they've positioned themselves in the meeting as the one who knows how to rescue everyone else from your bad advice.

Jim:
The scary part is all the research on narcissism, usually that narcissistic person is unaware they are doing it in the moment. If you think it's all calculated, you don't understand narcissism. It's often, a sociopath more calculated, a narcissist is not aware in the moment, in the moment, that they're doing these things, whether in fact their conscious hears with a hot iron or something else, that's the scary part. It enhances the fear of it. They're not aware they're doing.

Don't steal the glory of the narcissist, or in the metaphor of the Wizard of Oz, sometimes you're not trying to do it but you're Toto. You're just pulling back the curtain to see, and what's the words? Pay no, out of the narcissist's mouth, pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. I wasn't trying to expose you, one-up you in a business meeting. I know this wouldn't happen, but imagine if that ever happened in a board meeting in a church and you one-up a pastor or something. That wouldn't happen, would it? Who knows? The idea that somebody's just trying to put their wisdom in or make a statement but the narcissist thinks this is a threat to my very core. No it's not, but they think it is and bad things happen when they feel threatened.

Lysa:
What are we supposed to do about it? I think it's helpful to give people some scripts and then Joel, I want to go to some biblical examples of where we see some of this play out in Scripture and the heart attitude of differentiation between different biblical characters that some display some narcissistic tendencies and other that take maybe a mistake they've made and their response to being confronted or called out and the difference that they do. I've read two interesting books, Jim, and you recommended both of these. One, it's interesting you just mentioned Wizard of Oz because there's one book title called The Wizard of Oz and Other Narcissists, right? These aren't Christian books but they are very, very helpful counseling books. The other is a book called The Object of my Affection is in my [crosstalk 00:24:08] Reflection. In that book she gave some great scripts so let me just read this very quickly.

When you insult me, so this like if you, we're in that business meeting that we just talked about, so let's say, Jim, we're going to let you play the role of the narcissist, not that you are at all. You've now attacked me and now I know that I've got to address this with you but I do not want to have a conversation where I'm tapping into your shame because remember that's at the root of the narcissist, so I've got to figure out how do I confront without being confrontational and I also have to remember what you said. You need to feed the narcissist and it isn't that you are playing his game; it's that you know how to best help him hear, right?

Jim:
Outsmart the narcissist a little bit.

Lysa:
Here's some examples. Jim, when you insulted me during our meeting, it made me feel very blindsided. I want to learn from you because—

Jim:
I've already shut down as a narcissist, so you know.

Lysa:
I want to learn from you.

Jim:
You started with, when you insulted me, I'm gone.

Lysa:
Okay.

Jim:
As a narcissist, I've left.

Lysa:
So then I need to start off with Jim—

Jim:
When you said blah, blah, blah are you open to let me tell you what I felt?

Lysa:
Maybe you need to write a book on this, right?

Joel:
I was going to say that was very good.

Lysa:
What Rokelle was saying in her book, she's saying I want to learn from you because you have so much to teach me. My request is that you stop calling me names so that I can really listen without becoming distracted. If this happens at future meetings, I will have to leave the room temporarily but be assured, I will return. That's what Rokelle said, I don't know.

Jim:
I'm not fighting Rokelle Lerner, I've met her. I like her. She's great. I think for me that implies a little bit further down the road versus the first time. When you insulted me, but after a while I want all the clients I work with, all the people I work with, to get their boundaries clear. I'm calling it what it is. This is about fourth rodeo with this.

When you insulted me there, I'm claiming my truth. I'm not feeding you anymore, blah, blah, blah. Then it's about I'm going to have my boundaries on my side, and I don't want to pull the narcissistic thing. They all want to boomerang to come back to them, the narcissist. I don't want to be like that. I'm going to shoot, what I call, shoot straight like an arrow versus a boomerang. My arrow is, I'm going to speak my truth, Ephesians 4:15, in love and I'll say when you insulted me, when you said this I felt, and put up a boundary. I think that, for me, would be down the road. Initially with the person, if you don't know the person, you've never spoken your truth, then I think that's just going to be game one [inaudible 00:26:50] Secondly, I think she's implying there, I would make sure that I don't do that in the public square.

Lysa:
Exactly.

Joel:
We have a friend, Lysa, who often in our theology study days, will raise her hand and say I just want to represent for the average person and I feel like I'm having a role reversal in this moment. [crosstalk 00:27:01] So I'm going to raise my hand and ask for the average person. What y'all are just describing feels like so much effort. Even thinking to the nuances of how to present this question and where the person is, what would you say for the person like me, who just feels like, it's not worth it. This seems too hard.

Jim:
Can I speak to that first? I would take your own wisdom and ponder that very question. Is it worth it? I don't have to show up to every drama I'm invited to. I want to ponder, is it worth it for me to engage with this person? Once I go down three quick points, if I can real quick, educate yourself. The internet is filled with more than you could do in a million years to read and go and know the signs and symptoms. Two types of narcissism, some people say there are six types, educate yourself about that. Get really aware of what to look for, signs and symptoms.

Be simply an observer of the person. All of us have that wisdom. May I came from James, the person lacks faith or wisdom, ask God. God give me wisdom with this person. I want to be discerning, then just simply be an observer. I see that and don't doubt yourself this is going on. Notice, I feel unsafe here. Different than you're unsafe. I'm not feeling safe here.

Said it earlier in the podcast. Have community. Call a friend and say this is what's going on, I'm not gossiping. This is what was said or done, I feel unsafe. I feel gaslighted by this person. I tell the person, I know you. I would feel the same thing, so you can be an observer and of course in a healthy way stop feeding the narcissist. At that point, knowing because there's a payoff and you deal with corporate America, and I really believe in churches as well at times, in corporate America I've had people in my office myriad of times say if I draw healthy boundaries with a narcissistic boss, even with HR and all that involved, I'll probably be fired, black listed, cut off, something. I have to be aware, is it worth it? Some people have had to leave the job saying I'm not fighting that fight anymore.

Lysa:
I think what you're saying too, Joel, is, I can't remember this big long script so let me just give you some simple statements that again, I'm pulling straight from Rokelle's book. That's a very interesting opinion. What you need to do is in the moment get away from whoever is in the situation, if it's the narcissist that's attacking you, then your job, you're going to have to get away and regulate.

Jim:
As a narcissist, I wanted to lean in when you said that. That's my Jim version of you fed the narcissist in a good way. That's an interesting opinion, not you dummy, [crosstalk 00:30:00] I found myself leaning in.

Lysa:
That's an interesting opinion I need to think about that for a few minutes. I'll get back to you on that. Here's another one she said. I really want to think about what you're saying.

Jim:
I love that.

Lysa:
Another one is why is this so important to you; I'd love to know more.

Jim:
Listen to the nuance of the language. May I?

Lysa:
Yes.

Jim:
Why is this so important there? Imagine a different syllable change, using a softer voice, tell me why is this so important, I see this is so important to you, I believe you. Why is this so important? That's the curiosity piece to feed them a little bit so I don't hear anything that sounds like why is this so, why is this so important. I believe it is, tell me more.

Lysa:
Two others, maybe so or hmm could be. It was interesting, I remember one of my friends her name is Angela Thomas, she's an author and a speaker, she sometimes when she gets harsh emails from people and I don't know if she's picking up on some kind of narcissistic tendency or anything like that, but I loved her response. She told me one time, she said sometimes I just simply write back, you could be right. I guess we'll find out in heaven. And she just leaves it at that. I know we're running out of time today but really quick, Joel, two personalities that I think about from the Bible that are such a good distinction to study is Solomon and David. I know when I look at the life of Solomon, it started out so promising, so amazing, so many blessings from God but there is this real pivotal moment in 1 Kings where it says but Solomon clung to his foreign wives. I think about that in this conversation. I'm not saying Solomon was a narcissist, but I'm saying there's such a distinction between Solomon clung to those wives.

Jim:
And sacrificed to their foreign gods.

Lysa:
And sacrificed to their foreign gods, betraying his own relationship with the Lord after the Lord had blessed him so much and the response of David, who was also caught in a not great situation.

Joel:
Multiple situations.

Lysa:
Right, including the one with Bathsheba and what he says in Psalm 51. He doesn't blame anyone else; he doesn't shame anyone else; he did not cling to what he wanted or what he felt like he must have from other humans; he simply said God, I just stand here. Read Psalm 51 — I think it's fascinating. Any last thoughts as we wrap up today?

Joel:
Psalm 51, we can camp out there. Psalm 51, create in me a new heart o God, and we've said this in depth, Lysa, the Hebrew word for create is bara, which is not a heart renovation. I need you to come in and do a Chip and Joanna and do some new appeal in here, no it is actually I need you to create something brand-new. In fact this is the exact same word that's used in Genesis when it says that God created the heavens and the earth. He created ex nihilo, a Latin phrase that means out of nothing. This is that hope filled message of where are you on the spectrum of narcissism? Are you on tendencies? Is this a disorder where clinical psychologist would say there is no hope? As believers, my goodness, we have hope and His name is Jesus. Jesus, through the power of the Holy Spirit, can literally create something that is so brand-new and that heart can be brand-new.

Joel:
I was just studying on the word narco, the Greek word, which comes from narcissist, that's where we get that word. It means to grow numb by applying pressure.

Jim:
Like narcotic.

Joel:
Like narcotic. It was really interesting the tense of the word to grow numb. It's not an instant numbness. It's over a period of time. As I'm hearing the both of you talk, I'm thinking, my goodness, there is opportunity, time and time again, for healing, for restoration, for renewal. I thought it was interesting about the pressure, by applying pressure. I thought about sometimes when you sit on your foot, you know. If you sit on your foot for too long, it gets numb, and then all of a sudden you try to stand up and it's just this weird feeling. What happened? Your blood circulation actually got cut off from your foot so over a period of time, the source, the heart that pumps blood, was not able to get to that extremity, to that foot. I just began to think, oh my goodness, I think what's happening over a period of time for the person struggling with narcissism is that they are cutting themselves off from the source of life. That person is Jesus, and what we have to do is point them back, orient our hearts and their hearts back to the source of living water.

Jim:
Can I join you on Psalm 51? You both know it, how does the passage start? Narcissist won't say that typically. It goes vertical. Have mercy on me, O God. That's how that passage starts. He starts off with, be merciful to me. That's humility and I work with, hopefully a narcissist can learn some behavior, would you try, do you feel like, are you willing to repent. Maybe back here I am. Have mercy on me, O God. Vertical humility. Love it.

Lysa:
The last thing I'll say as we wrap up today is maybe you've been listening and you've been thinking about a significant relationship in your life and you're now concerned that maybe I don't have the theological training to be able to properly navigate this, I don't want to think that this person in my life is a narcissist but I don't know what to do about that. That's why I want to encourage you, definitely like Jim said, get educated. There's some fantastic books we've recommended too, here on the podcast but also find a trusted Christian counselor to help you navigate that relationship because it is going to be hard for you to navigate it on your own and be honest with yourself.

Lysa:
I think for me, sometimes, having a more positive bent in life, I always want to believe the best. It think that's a really good quality until it isn't. Sometimes it's really hard for me to believe that what I'm experiencing is as damaging as it is. Here's what I want to say to you. It really isn't about diagnosing that person you're in a relationship with as a narcissist; that's not what we're trying to do. If you are in a relationship that is abusive, that is one way, that is taking the best of who you are and beating it down, I don't mean physically so much, I mean emotionally.
If you walk away from that person and you think less of yourself every single time, it really doesn't matter if they're a narcissist or not, you need to get help. Who do you get help from? A trusted friend, someone trusted at your church, a counselor, maybe even a sister or a brother, but you need to find someone that you trust and you need to be honest about what you're experiencing and tell them you need help. We'll end it there today. Thank you guys so much. Be sure to stay in touch with us. You can subscribe to the podcast. You can—

Jim:
Like and share.

Lysa:
That's right. You can share, tell people about this. Use us as a resource to start toward the healing, whatever healing it is that you need. Thank you so much.