Therapy and Theology

Lysa TerKeurst:
OK. Well, welcome back to Therapy & Theology. I'm Lysa TerKeurst here, with Jim Cress, my personal counselor, licensed professional counselor, Christian counselor, amazing, all the letters and stuff behind his name. And Dr. Joel Muddamalle. And I love that I get to say doctor now, because you have officially finished the dissertation.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
It is done.

Lysa TerKeurst:
It is done.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
It is finished.

Lysa TerKeurst:
It is finished.

Jim Cress:
To tell [inaudible 00:01:54].

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Amen.

Lysa TerKeurst:
So welcome. If you're listening to this by recording, you may also hear background noise because we have for the first time ever, Joel calls it —

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Historic.

Lysa TerKeurst:
— historic. I just say it's new, but for the first time ever we have a live audience. And so, welcome to the live audience, and we're going to jump right in.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Today we're going to talk about a healthy way to have hard conversations. So let me give a little background of how I even got into being interested in this. And I have to give a lot of credit to Jim Cress because I already said you're my personal counselor, and I struggle with hard conversations. I'm a good communicator, but I can shut down really easily when the conversation hits a certain point, where it gets really hard.

Lysa TerKeurst:
I think part of the shutdown for me is I don't want to say something I later regret. And also, there's a lot of emotion that's driving whatever I'm trying to communicate. And what I didn't realize is that if I'm not able to think logically in the conversation, my tendency is to shut down or I will overreact. And you helped me understand that sometimes when you're in a situation and you get kicked into that prefrontal cortex, which is fight, flight —

Jim Cress:
Limbic brain.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Yes, in the limbic brain.

Jim Cress:
Yeah, the limbic. Right.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Then you're automatically just reeling and you're tempted to fight, flight or freeze.

Jim Cress:
And you've added a couple, or one at least.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah.

Jim Cress:
Freak out.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Or freak out, because that's what I do. So that's when we get kicked into that limbic brain and isn't that the same place where our trauma is stored?

Jim Cress:
Right. And you have the amygdala, which is this weird little part of your brain that literally, it's small, but man, it's stores all this data. And we've said often, if it's hysterical, that doesn't mean you're nuts. It just means you've got all this energy. If it's hysterical, it's historical. And the brain research shows — it's like going into Atlanta — from the amygdala or limbic brain to the prefrontal cortex is like a 10 lane highway. But talking from your prefrontal cortex, command central, back to the limbic brain is like a one-legged little old country road going way down. So it's hard with trauma. Trauma often does not understand language. So to talk yourself down once you're fully flooded, very hard to talk yourself down. Takes about 20 minutes for that to calm down.

Lysa TerKeurst:
And so, the other thing to remember is often when we're having a conversation with someone and it slips into some dynamics that are very difficult, it's not just about what's in front of you. It's not just about the conflict that's here. It's not just about the frustration you're feeling.
Often, like Jim just said, when it's hysterical, it's historical, because we will travel back, pull on some unhealed pain from our past and make it front and center. And we can have a severe overreaction to the offense at hand because it's pain from our past and frustration from our present, that's all being combined. And the pain from our past may have nothing to do with the person in front of us. But the conversation will get even more challenging when we start bringing in all this rush of emotion.

Jim Cress:
And if you're mindful that many of our adult relationships, no kidding, many of our adult relationships are family reunions. How do you walk into a setting and feel like, "I don't like these five people," just by looking? You have no clue of their story, or does somebody do that to you in a church small group. Or I lead groups in places in a therapeutic milieu environment, I'm thinking, "Some of you already … it's like a family reunion.” You're projecting or transferring stuff onto me without even trying. "I don't like you." "You don't even know me." That's scary too, that we're judging without even trying to judge.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Because other people can remind us of someone else from our past that has caused hurt and maybe there's unresolved conflict. And so, it creates a multiplied impact inside whatever conflict or hard conversation we're having.
So all that to say, I went to Jim and said, "I have an issue and I need to address the issue." And that's where so many of our topics from Therapy & Theology come from. I have often joked that Joel brings the theology, Jim brings the therapy and I bring the issues, and it just really works. But I think along with the issues, I bring some experiential wisdom, that I go home and try your advice.
And then, when I see that it works, then I am absolutely compelled to bring it to other people. Because I know when you're in a crisis, it's sometimes easier to listen to a podcast immediately then find the right person to process all of this with.
So we don't want to replace counseling here. If you have a great counselor, please continue to see them. And we certainly don't want to replace any of your pastoral leadership or even opportunities to process with a friend. But we want to be present in the moment where you need this information the most.
And so, today we're going to talk about, A Healthy Way to Have Hard Conversations.
Jim, I love what ... One of the first things you told me when we were talking about this is the number one thing people fight about, and you asked me to guess. And so, I had all of these guesses. I thought finances. I thought raising kids. I thought different ways of processing life. Different priorities.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
What to watch on TV.

Lysa TerKeurst:
OK, what to watch on TV. See, I don't watch a lot of TV, but thank you, Joel, that you led us to that.

Jim Cress:
You're near number two.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
For the everyday average person out there, what to watch on TV.

Jim Cress:
Yeah, you're close. The second thing most couples fight over is who controls the remote control, but we're going to get to the number one in a minute.

Lysa TerKeurst:
This is astonishing to me. I need to do some therapy and theology with you guys, about this conversation right here.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
[inaudible 00:08:10].

Lysa TerKeurst:
OK, but the number one thing people fight about … Jim?

Jim Cress:
Is nothing at all. Because if you're fighting about money, it's primarily not about money. You're fighting about sex, if you're married, it's primarily not about that. Kids, in-laws, it's primarily not about that. And I have witnessed that time ... And usually, in time, couples that I'll work with will say, "You're right. You've kind of proven the point. This is about money till it's not about money. It's something different, something deeper."

Lysa TerKeurst:
And so, when we sit down and process the fact that we are going to have to have conversations with other people, and we're trying to think of a better way to prepare for that, you and I, Jim and I, wrote a downloadable resource that we've used for years and years and years. And it became so important that I actually put it in the back of my new book, Good Boundaries and Goodbyes. And if you purchase that book from Proverbs 31 Ministries, it will be included in the back of the book. Otherwise, we will also make it available, downloadable for everyone else who buys their books elsewhere. But it's the “Healthy Conversations Contract.” And part of that is educating ourselves, how do we have good conversations even when the conversations are hard. So how do we have hard conversations?
Colossians 4:6 in the NIV says, "Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone." And I think that's a great goal for any conversation.
And I feel absolutely compelled to say I don't hit the mark of that verse sometimes, especially when the conversation is hard. And I think a lot of us are in that place. That's why it's so important to think ahead, before the rush of emotion, before the intensity of whatever the issue at hand is, to think ahead. And possibly even have a contract with some of the people that you're in the hard conversations with more often. “Let’s just sit down. Let’s pre-decide how we’re going to handle hard conversations.”
Now, sometimes that’s going to be possible and sometimes it’s not. But Jim, why don’t we start with first things first, when we're thinking about a healthy way to have a hard conversation and we're pre-deciding how we want the conversation to go, let's think, what should we do first?

Jim Cress:
Well, I think this concept we talk about of being grounded or emotional sobriety. That word sobriety is in the Bible. "Be sober, vigilant; for your adversary, the devil like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour." (1 Peter 5:8, KJV)
So the idea of going into a conversation, let's call that an arena for a moment, to prepare yourself. It's talked about in Nehemiah. As they're going to rebuild the walls, they prepared themselves. They strengthened themselves for the good work that they had to do. Often people will say, "Man, I'm going to have a conversation with family member," mother, father, sibling, spouse, ex-spouse, your own kids, whoever it might be, someone at work. And I'll say, "Well, stop for a moment. Ponder before you go into that conversation. What's the likelihood of you being triggered in this conversation?" "That person's going to be messing with me." Or, "If I put a boundary up, they mock me."
Because I see people come in, and what I call conversational claustrophobia, they're just all of a sudden trapped in a corner and a person says, "We are talking," and you didn't say, "I don't have that to give right now."
So to pause and give yourself permission to say, "Wait a minute, I don't want to be held hostage, taken hostage in this conversation." And you get to have, starting with this boundary issue, to say, "Now is not a good time." I, not we, "I'm not having this conversation."
And then, if you're willing to have the conversation, to go in and not be surprised when someone kind of pulls your chain. Victor Franco, most of you know that name, talked about what I'll call about a holy pause. And he said, "Between something somebody does and your reaction or response, take a moment, because there is white space." There is a pause that's there to say, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What do I need to do? What's going on inside of me?" I know it can go fast if someone's coming at you fast. They do, they react, you react back, point, counterpoint. And then, we're gone. Everybody's in their amygdala at that time.

Lysa TerKeurst:
So I think before we even sit down, going ahead and taking counsel with yourself, like the Bible says, is to determine, "I'm going to have a holy pause." So someone says something to me and I'm going to give myself permission to sit with it for just a few seconds, at least. And I'm going to then respond rather than reacting. But I think before we get into that conversation, making that decision in our mind is going to be really crucial.

Lysa TerKeurst:
I also think if the number one thing that people fight about is nothing at all, then we need to sit down and think ahead of time, "What is the point of this conversation?" So I've got some questions that you can ask yourself before you even sit down to have the hard conversation.
Number one, "What is really upsetting me?" Sometimes I'll go into a conversation and I'll be very upset, but it's not really about the thing that I start addressing. It's like I'm throwing this out because it's the most current or its most convenient, but really, that's not really what's driving my frustration. So ask yourself, "What is really upsetting me?" And sometimes, you got to process that ahead of time. And I would suggest you always need to process that ahead of time.
Number two, "What am I really feeling?" Because sometimes we'll say we're mad about something when in reality we're actually hurt about something or sad about something. So, “What am I really feeling?"
Number three, "Are there other factors contributing to my feelings?" There could be other factors that are adding to the anxiety or the frustration here that have nothing to do with this person. And so, you before, Jim, have said, "Am I ..." I forget. What is it? Am I hungry?

Jim Cress:
Well, your emotions, quickly — mad, sad, glad, bad, afraid. "Where am I? What's really going on?" Why are you sad? And then, I do BSHALT. Am I bored? S, stressed? This is from addiction, this last part. "Am I hungry, angry, lonely or tired? What's really going on in me?"

Lysa TerKeurst:
“So could some of these other factors be contributing to my feelings?”

Jim Cress:
Yeah.

Lysa TerKeurst:
This is a really important question to ask ourselves because it'll change the way that you address this: “Is this a one-time annoyance that can be overlooked or an ongoing pattern that needs to be addressed?” That’s a really big one to ask ourselves because we don’t want to address something as if it’s an ongoing pattern when maybe they just made a mistake, and I think that those could be handled really differently.
And last question is, “What do I hope to accomplish with this conversation?” And I think of all the questions to ask yourself beforehand, settling in your heart and mind what you want to address and what do you want to accomplish are going to be very, very important. So that’s first things first.
Joel, I have a question for you. James 4:1 says, “What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you?”(NIV) OK. So when I read that verse and I'm looking at all these questions — what's really upsetting me, what do I hope to accomplish, what am I really feeling —that verse sort of bumps into me, because I'm thinking the issue is with the other person and I need to address that. But maybe before we have the hard conversation, we need to examine ourselves spiritually. And so, help me make peace with this verse right here.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah. So a couple things. One is, I'm going to say something that may come as a little bit of, "Whoa, are you going to actually say that? And is that true?" But I'm going to say it and I think it's true. So follow with me.
And I'm following a theologian, a scholar. His name is James K.A. Smith. And he makes this statement, he actually argues scripturally and even neurologically and physically that we are as humans, primarily feeling beings before we're thinking beings. Typically, we're thinking first and then our feelings follow our thoughts. And yet, even the biblical examples are, know, from the heart is the overflow. And the way that the Hebrews understood the [inaudible 00:17:22] it was the wellspring, the volition of emotion and intellect and thought. All these things are happening together.
And so, I think it's really important here that we take consideration of James 4:1 in light of what you started with, Lysa, Colossians 4:6. Notice how Paul, as he's talking to a church and Colossi that are dealing with all kinds of dysfunctions that are going on. We'll just exegete this text really quick. "Let your conversation …"

Lysa TerKeurst:
I love when you say, "Let's just exegete real quick."

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah, we're going to do this quickly.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Yes.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Let's exegete really quickly. It means we're just going to go word by word and unpack the text.

Lysa TerKeurst:
It's my goal, sometime in the next week, to say that to one of my family members, "Let's just exegete that real quick."

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
They're going to be so happy you said that. They're going to be excited.

Lysa TerKeurst:
They're going to say, "You've been hanging out with Joel for a long time."

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
That's right. But look at how Paul starts. "Let your conversation ..." What does this mean? It means it's dialogue, not monologue. We're going into a discourse, not just me talking at somebody. And then, if we're going to go into a dialogue, not a monologue, the next thing is, "… be full of grace…” unmerited favor." How can we be full of grace? Well, we remember how God has been gracious to us. In fact, Lysa, I think that those questions that you just asked are exactly the right questions to be reminded of our own situations when God has been gracious to us and the people of God have been gracious to us.

Lysa TerKeurst:
And maybe, Joel, it would also help to think of a time when this person that we're about to have this hard conversation with, think of a time that they were gracious with you. And I think if we could call that to mind, both God's grace and there may be a time where that person has done something kind, or something good, or even something honorable. And so, if we can keep in mind, maybe there was a time this person gave us grace and now it's time to return the favor. Maybe, not always the case with certain situations and certain dynamics, but it is the case sometimes. And so, I think if we can call to mind a time that person has done something good, honorable, helpful or even gracious toward us, it could be helpful too.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
I think that's so important. And the last one ... Every time I read the Bible, sometimes ... I don't know if you guys have had this experience, but I read something and my mind skips over it, because I think, "Ah, it's a throwaway word. It's a throwaway phrase."

Jim Cress:
That's biblical ADHD.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Is that what it is?

Jim Cress:
No, I have that. It's like yeah [inaudible 00:19:45].

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
I definitely have that. Well —

Lysa TerKeurst:
It's because y'all watch too much TV.

Jim Cress:
The NBA finals. Anyhow.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Anyways, I think this phrase is actually incredibly important. And this is what Paul says, "seasoned with salt ..." Now, we live in a culture where we can get Morton Salt at the grocery store at a flip of a dime. We just get it. That's it. We got it. And it's to season our steaks, which by the way, if you want to make a great steak, I learned early on, all you do is salt and pepper. That's it.

Jim Cress:
Did this turn into a cooking show suddenly?

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
No, but trust me, in the ancient world, what was salt used for? Preservation. Why does Paul start this with these two crucial things? He says, one, remind yourself of how God has been gracious to you in the first place. Secondly, as you enter into a discourse, a dialogue, not a monologue, remember that the aim, the tell us, the end goal is a preservation of relationship."
And if our goal is preservation of relationship, that in turn dictates the way in which that we communicate. And then James, "What causes fights and quarrels among you?" (James 4:1a, NIV) I have a suspicion that one, we've missed the fact that preservation of relationship is one of the goals. And two, we have moved from a state of being a gracious and humble people that have experienced the goodness of God to feeling like something's owed to us. I've got an agenda. I've got my thing that has to be one over. And yet, that doesn't seem to be the way that healthy conversations take place.

Lysa TerKeurst:
So I have a phrase that I will try to remember to say to myself. I don't always get this right, but it has really helped me just to encapsulate all of this.
Number one, the first thing we need to do when we're having hard conversations, I think we need to ask ourselves this question: "Am I trying to prove that I'm right? Or am I trying to improve this relationship? Because I cannot do both at the same time."
OK. Let's move onto number two. And number two is, determine the best time of day for having not just hard conversations, but we want to have productive conversations. So determine the best time of day. And I would say, you need to consider how you're wired. You need to consider when is the time that you're going to be at your best, when is the time they're going to be at their best, when is it going to be appropriate. Sometimes it's just not an appropriate time. If you're with a whole group of people, maybe it's not an appropriate time to have a really hard conversation.
Sometimes I get this right and sometimes I get it wrong, because if I'm thinking ahead about a hard conversation, then I have a much greater chance of getting it right. But if I get triggered in the moment and I get upset in the moment, I have the propensity to just want to address it now. And I want to address it all right now. And so, I think it's much better though if we start establishing with our people or even with the person that maybe we're having repeated hard conversations with the same person, establish a time of day that is really most appropriate and most helpful and most productive to have a hard conversation.
I educated my kids when they were young that ... And this is bad theology, I'm going to go ahead and just admit it. But it plays out in reality. I wanted to get a sign made for my bedroom door that said, "The Holy Spirit leaves my body after 9:00 p.m. Enter at your own risk." And —

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
She's joking. That's a joke. It's a hyperbole.

Lysa TerKeurst:
It is. I'm not serious that the Holy Spirit actually leaves my body. But what I'm saying is, you're not going to get the best Lysa after 9:00 p.m. You're just not.
Now, if you want to wake up with me at 7:00 a.m., even 6:30, even 5:30 a.m., you will get an awesome Lysa at that time. So obviously most people are not wanting to have hard conversations at 5:30 a.m. So we'll meet in the middle.
All right, guys, what do you have to say about picking the right time?

Jim Cress:
Well, we have these here in North Carolina where I live and where we live, but when a morning songbird, maybe it's a Carolina wren, marries a bat, that's a problem because some people believe if God wanted you to see the sunrise, he'd have put it about noon.
So seriously, the bandwidth, or like our cell phones, the battery strength, to know this person and there are many nuances, which is, "I don't do any conversation before coffee or before this amount of time," you are worth ... I tell couples all the time, "You're worth being listened to." That person ain't able to listen to you. They're not alert. They're awake. Or coming in late at night, they're like Dracula or something, is what I call them. And then all of a sudden they just come alive. Boy, as soon as it gets dark, like a bat. And their radar's up and all like that.
And the other person says, as Lysa's referred to, "I literally, in my brain, cannot focus on your conversation." So don't cast your pearls before swine. Don't put your precious things out there to people who don't care. And don't pathologize them either. Say, "Well, if you loved me, you'd stay up til 2:00 a.m. listening to me." Or, "Well, you'd get up early in the morning." The Bible even says, "Don't use a loud voice with your neighbor in the morning." (Proverbs 27:14) So there's all kinds of nuances that, again, we're just fighting about our wiring. I don't know why somebody's a morning person and somebody's a night person.
But to look and say … and what we do in the contract that I use with all my couples is, "Hey, let's agree ahead of time, we're not going to talk about something potentially difficult before," pick the time, "8:00 a.m. or after."
And night time becomes very important, not after 8:00 p.m., because then you go off to bed. You know what's really hard with a lot of couples? Is they have this fight. And then one of them, all of a sudden just says, "Right, we'll just talk about it later." And they're out cold. And the other person's laying there.
So to be able to say, "I'm not talking," and then get couples to negotiate, usually, you have to give up some ground. "I'm not going to talk early in the morning. They're going to talk late at night.”
How many times we've heard this? Please just boundary yourself so you're not fighting in the car on the way to church. They're sitting there and they're fighting. And all of a sudden, "Praise the Lord," and their hands go up. You got to protect that time.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
That's not so good. I'll use an example of somebody who understands timing very, very, very well. You want to know who it is? The enemy. The devil. Think about Jesus in the temptation in the desert. Does he show up on the front half? Nah, he waits till the second half, after the 40 days of fasting. He understands the timing is vitally important.
And so, I think it's important that we understand that timing is so vitally important in when we have conversations, but also in understanding that timing in the inverse, the negative way, can be the very thing that sets us into dysfunctional conversations. And that, I think, is the aim of the enemy obviously in that moment with Jesus. Very practical, non-theological.
Brit and I, my wife, we will celebrate 13 years of marriage on August 15. That's pretty amazing. It's taken us 13 years to figure out — and we're still not doing it well — that the very first thing in the morning that Joel is thinking about is coffee. "How can I get to my coffee the fastest way possible?" Brit is thinking about how to solve child hunger problems and she wants to process all of that.
And so, to your point, we've just had to have very honest conversations of, "Hey, babe, I'm just going to get my coffee. My Nespresso with oat milk steamed up. And after that, we will tackle the issue of child hunger. But let me get my coffee first."

Lysa TerKeurst:
That's really good. Now, here's where I'm going to throw a little monkey wrench into this whole thing.

Jim Cress:
Into Joel's, not mine, right?

Lysa TerKeurst:
Both. Because here's the thing, sometimes my hard conversations are not this neat and tidy and well timed, because they just erupt. I didn't even see it coming. It's like the birds are singing. The flowers are blooming. And wham, you bump into my happy. And now, we're in the middle of a hard conversation. I didn't even see it coming.
So one thing that Jim has taught me is this wonderful opportunity to say, maybe in the moment, we just dialogue and we realize, "Whoa, this is going to be a really hard conversation." And so, say, "I need to bookmark this." And we literally just establish that right now is not the best time to have this conversation. "Right now, we're not in a place where it's appropriate to have this conversation. We're going to bookmark it and establish an agreed upon time to come back together."
Why is it important to establish an agreed upon time? Because typically, one of you is just really wanting to talk about this right now. And if I'm the one really wanting to talk about this right now, I will have an absolute panic if you say, "We'll talk about this later." And later just feels like never. You might as well say to me, "We're going to talk about this never," if you say to me, "We're going to talk about this later." Just, "Let's bookmark it. Let's put a time. We're going to talk about this on Sunday afternoon at 4 o'clock." And then, my brain can settle down. Because remember what you always say, Jim, our brain is searching for what?

Jim Cress:
It's confidence in knowing. It's searching for safety and security. And what happens in vagueness, stays in vagueness. This is true. You and I say, "We'll get around to it." A lot of people probably in this room and listening to the podcast have had people say, "Hey, we'll get back to that. I just can't talk about it now," and they never circle back. So whoever calls for the bookmark is the responsible one who says, "Now, let's un-bookmark tonight at 6:00." Follow through.

Lysa TerKeurst:
And what I've found is bookmarking conversations really is a wonderful way to give yourself time to think before the hard conversation. So maybe the intensity happened in a moment, in a spark of a frustration that just erupted. But bookmarking the conversation gives you time to go back and, "OK, how do I have a healthy conversation that's productive, even if it's hard?" And some of that emotion can settle down. Some of the intensity can settle down.

Jim Cress:
And may I say too, let's just all get practical. We know this, that all of us have probably done this. I certainly have. That I've sat over there and warmed up and warmed up and played all the cases and got five notebooks full of data on you. That I come and say, "Could we talk?" And I'm loaded for there. And the other person hasn't warmed up. They haven't been thinking. So it's uneven there.
So I encourage people. If you're with a person, say, "Hey, something important I'd like to share." Watch, "Is now a good time? It's not, then when would be?" Keeping people out of conversational claustrophobia. Or if you're not with the person, don't call them. How about just sending a text that says, "There's something I'd like to talk about. I reckon it'd take about 15 minutes." Never say, "Can I get a minute of your time?" Because that's always a lie. Only a commercial on TV is a minute. "So I'd probably need about 15 minutes of your time. Is now a good time?" And I use the words, "Do you have it to give?" Let the person say, "Oh, I get a choice here. Not now." Stay in my adult self and say, "Thank you. Then when would be a good time?" Because we kind of T-bone people in intersections. Like, "We're talking now." It's like, "Well, you're all warmed up. I've not even thought about it."

Lysa TerKeurst:
OK. So not only is it important to choose the right time, but number three is, choose the place and location for potentially having difficult conversations. And Jim, I know you have a lot to say about this, especially for couples, where it's good to have hard conversations and where maybe we should avoid having hard conversations.

Jim Cress:
Well, if we're talking about in this case married couples, that the bedroom is for sleeping, serenity, safety and sex. And even Hebrews 13:4, I'm going to pull that in right in front of Joel, that the marriage bed is undefiled. Don't defile it with toxic conversations. So don't have any, and that means any, research shows this, any negative conversations in the bedroom. "Well, we have kids." Go sit in the car. Keep the engine off if it's in the garage. But find a place, seriously.
And plus, it's where we mimic ... Now, this is going to go real deep on you. That's where we mimic our coming death. We lie down at night and go unconscious. And the old timers all knew it, it mimics our ... Even the King James English, talking about those who sleep. So what we do at night, and melatonin released in our body and all that, to go off to sleep, and we put tension right before that. So get out of the bedroom. Go down to the kitchen. Go take a walk somewhere else. But don't do that in the bedroom.
And I would want to ask one more. This is one more common. Seriously, please stop, either on the phone ... Do I sound grouchy? I'm not trying to be. I'm talking like an old dad here now. I'm turning 60 in a week. But please stop this conversational drunk driving, of getting mad in the car. You have all this horsepower. Defensive driving schools teach it. They know it. And you got the wheel and you're mad. Plus, the car moving left and right. Now, I'm really in therapy mode, is called bilateral stimulation of the brain. So when you put tough stuff, when you're taking a walk with someone, the left and right of a car going by, and you get, whether it's road rage against the person next to you or road rage in the person in the car, it's like drunk driving. It's not fair and nothing good’s going to happen. So even there, even if you're single, context and place is so important, of where you have the talk.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
This is what I love about the Bible and theology. There's an entire discipline called the theology of place in both the Old Testament and New Testament. The place where the temple is. The place where the tabernacle is. The way that the Israelites were in the tabernacle during the wilderness wandering. The tabernacle was smack right in the middle in the entire place. It's a theology of place.
Now, there's this idea that there are sacred spaces. That's where Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, these guys built altars to commemorate these things that are also places that are not sacred. And in fact, they become defiled. In fact, in the New Testament, when we get to Jesus, that's what He describes hell as, as Gehenna. It's an actual place that was defiled. That was no longer used for the intent that it had.
And so, there's a place, the way that the temple worked, there's a place where you did sacrifice, where you went to the altar. Every place has a purpose. And so, I think this is so vital, that we don't allow places that have been reserved in our relationship for the Lord and in a relationship with each other to actually become defiled, to actually become despoiled. We have to preserve that and then be very thoughtful in terms of how can we then create the right spaces in order to have these conversations.

Jim Cress:
So good.

Lysa TerKeurst:
And Jim, you already mentioned number [four]. So we're going to go through this one pretty quickly, but set a time limit for the conversation. And I kind of giggle when people say, "Oh, can I have a minute?" It's never a minute. And you went to 15. I'm thinking if we are having a hard conversation and I think it's 15, I'm going to double it and say 30. I've never had a hard conversation and really had anything productive happen in 15 minutes. But you're a dude, so maybe you can. I'm just saying for me.

Jim Cress:
Well, you know why? Here's the thing with that. It's good wisdom. And it is the male-female part of even right here, what's happening live. It's in this, the one that we printed up, that you gave out, it's in there. Be willing to ask for more time. Say, "Can I get 15? Because see, I want to listen to you."
There's Meredith over there. Am I allowed to say your name? Hi, Meredith. And if we're talking, I love talking with Meredith. She's incredible. But if we're talking and I say, "Can I get 15 minutes?" Or I give her no time. And all of a sudden, about 12 minutes in, they're running a timer on us, down here on the floor, and her timer runs out, I'll be able to watch her eyes, whatever. And she's checking out. She's like, "Get me out of here." So she says, "I don't have 15, Jim. I have 12." Then I can, "Hey, we're really making some progress in this conversation. Might I have 10 more minutes?"
And I get it, it seems like some people are like, "We're talking now and it's going to be 15 minutes." I just got to read the room and know my audience. And if they're peacing out on me like, "Dude, I'm not listening to you," then I'm in a monologue.

Lysa TerKeurst:
I do think it is really wise to set a time limit for the conversation though, because that will help you stay focused. And sometimes if the conversation seems like it's just going to go on forever, eventually someone is going to check out or peace out, because we're not wired to just let this thing just go on and on and on and on. So set a time limit.
OK. The very next one, point number five, clearly state to the other person precisely what you desire to talk about in the upcoming conversation. I love the script that you've already given to us, Jim, where you say, "I want to have a conversation about blank. Is now a good time? If not now, then when would be a good time? Do you have the emotional capacity to participate in a conversation about blank?" So you're stating the desire.

Jim Cress:
You're getting out of conversational vagueness. There's a term for you. And it says, "We need to talk." "Well, that's not even accurate. No, listen, you need to talk. You come at me with a we, 'We need to...' I'm not ready to think that I need to talk about anything." So, "I'd like to talk about our money, or the Amex bill," or something, "Very seriously." See how specific. "Is now a good time? We need to talk." I'm like, "I'm spinning. Well, what did I do?"

Lysa TerKeurst:
And one thing that Jim taught me, one day we were doing an Instagram Live, and I wanted to talk about unrealistic expectations. And so, I was just talking on and on about healthy expectations, realistic expectations, unrealistic expectations. I probably used the word 50 times in a very short period of time, while I was introducing what Jim and I were going to talk about.

Jim Cress:
She was exegeting expectations.

Lysa TerKeurst:
I really was.

Jim Cress:
Let me tell you.

Lysa TerKeurst:
I really was. I felt like, "Man, this Instagram Live is going to be so good." And Jim said, "Do you mind if I just share a thought? Do you have it to give for me to share a thought with you?" And I thought, "Here it comes. He is about to therapy correct me right here on our Instagram Live." And he did.
And he said, "Lysa, might we choose another word besides expectations?" And you went on to explain that so many times the word expectation already has built in simmering resentments. And so, when we're stating the purpose of this conversation, I would watch using expectation. And Jim gave me some other words to use. Like, we can have needs. I have needs, you have needs. It's OK for everyone to have needs. But maybe not using the word expectation, which already has some simmering resentments built inside.

Jim Cress:
Well stated. Our words frame our reality, don't they? People are listening. Like, you expect me, and suddenly I feel backed in a corner.

Lysa TerKeurst:
Oh, trust me, I know it now, because I will never forget that moment, when we were doing that Instagram Live.

Jim Cress:
Sorry.

Lysa TerKeurst:
And every time I say the word expectation now, I hear it. It's like I'm revisiting that whole situation. No, but it's very, very good. When we state the purpose of the conversation, maybe use the word needs, desires, something like that, rather than expectation.
OK. Number six, be honest with yourself and with the other person in the conversation about what your personal boundaries are. And so, Jim, and I know you'll have something to say about this too, Joel, even before we get into the hard stuff about the conversation, we need to establish what is OK and what is not OK. What do you have to say about this, Jim?

Jim Cress:
Well, I want to, again, both when I'm speaking, be listened to, and I want, another thing that my dear wife, Jessica, of 37 years, I want her to feel heard by me.
And so, if I, being a frustrated pastor and coach in a therapist role, that's who I am, so that's a little secret for you. And if the finger comes out ... Now, for the podcast listeners, it's the index finger. But if I start saying, "And babe, I think ..." I'm not even saying it about her, about topic X, it doesn't matter, she now will come over and grab my, very gently, and put my finger down. She goes, "I can't listen to you with the finger out." And that's a small, funny thing, but it's true, because I'm passionate. You might sense that. So inside is eye rolling. Remember non-verbal is probably about 90% of this thing. Someone doing heavy size. Someone doing quid pro quo, which we have that in the Four Horsemen.
"Yeah, really? You're going to bring that up. Well, let me tell you what I need to bring up." Those are boundaries to say I, not we, "I'm not going to stay in a conversation with you if you do these things. You name call me." Or people using simile and metaphor. "I said you're like a jerk, not a jerk." "Oh, are you serious?" So you could say, "Hey, if that language comes out, if you're cursing at me or whatever, I'm not going to stay in this conversation."
Every person in this room and on the podcast, you have to nuance to yourself, knowing your own story. Like, "Hey, you get loud. That's like daddy. I can't hear you. So if you get loud, I'm going to ask you to quiet down." I wouldn't shush a person. That's a trigger for me. Suddenly everybody at supper here will be shushing me to play with me, I'm sure. Just say, "Hey, I want to hear you. But when you get loud like that ... I'm not screaming." So you got to know your own boundaries and say, "You're so worth hearing. But when you do this, I can't hear you."

Lysa TerKeurst:
I like that language. "When you do this, I can't hear you. And I won't continue the conversation." Because I think laying down some of those ground rules are important.
And that goes right into number seven, is remember conversation killers. And that's what we have used before, but it's also known as the Four Horsemen. And so, here are the four conversation killers. One is criticism. And what we have listed under that one is, stay focused on the concern instead of being critical of the other person. So I'm going to say, focus on the issue rather than criticizing who you are, or what you do, or what I've experienced. So criticism is number one.

Jim Cress:
I like to say, kind of how Joel always leads the way and says, "This may be crazy, what I'm about to say," but I do not believe that this statement I'm about to say exists.
Constructive criticism. Criticism is cutting you down. It has the energy — I'm going to cut you down. I'm going to knock you down a size. And I like to build you up, cut you down. This just doesn't make sense. So the idea is, can you say difficult things? Ephesians 4:15, "Speak the truth in [agape] love." Yes, but the idea of this type of criticism is, I'm going to cut you down and I might weaponize part of your story. "You're a blabber mouth." Or you're a this or you're a that. And I've heard you. People do that. They weaponize things. And the goal is, I want to cut you down. It happens a lot in marriages.

Lysa TerKeurst:
OK. The next one, conversation killer, is defensiveness. Now, Jim and Joel, I would love for you both to weigh in on this one. When I think of defensiveness, I think you're going to tell me I can't defend myself, because what if I feel like I need to defend myself? But actually what defensiveness is, is instead of listening and seeking to understand the one expressing a concern, the other person jumps to placing blame or shirking responsibilities. But help us know, how do I know if I'm shirking responsibilities or just truly trying to defend myself?

Jim Cress:
What I say there, it's a little Jim-ism, take it or leave it, is protect, don't defend. I'll say it again, protect, don't defend. There's a little kid, lives inside all of you. You got to come to Jesus like a faithful little child. And so, if somewhere in your story someone verbally, emotionally abused you, and somebody's coming at you or crossing your boundaries in a conversation, don't defend, which is, "I will fight back," usually as quid pro quo. "You hit me ..." How many of you have kids? "Why'd you hit your brother?" The answer is —

Lysa TerKeurst:
"He hit me."

Jim Cress:
"He hit me first." We're wired in that. So protect, don't defend. And protection is, "I don't feel safe with what's coming at me right now." The defensive is, "I've stopped listening and I'm going to come right back at you and defend."

Jim Cress:
Do you remember from Shakespeare, "Me thinks thou dust protest too much?" Why did I go that quick to defending myself? Why do I need to defend myself? Protecting though, I think is different. To say, "Hey, that's not OK with you bringing this up. You're weaponizing. You're twisting it. I don't feel safe with that."

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah. I think of defensiveness as winning. That's what happens in my world. And so —

Jim Cress:
In football, seriously, they say "Defense —

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Defense wins the game.

Jim Cress:
— wins championships."

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah. Absolutely.

Jim Cress:
We're wired for that.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
And so, it turns into an us versus them situation. I think it's important, what that Hebrews passage that we just looked at says. That Hebrews 12:14-15, "Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy ..." (NIV) The word holy means to be set apart. And so, there is an implication here that the ultimate goal is peace. This is what the author of Hebrews is saying, “make every effort …” That means everything within our means, within our power, what can we do? And whatever we can do, we do. Everything outside of that, we have to leave in the hands of God.

Lysa TerKeurst:
OK. So criticism, defensiveness. Number three is contempt. And this is the most dangerous of all four conversation killers, and is usually fueled by long simmering resentments against this other person. Help us, Jim.

Jim Cress:
Contempt, I want you to, again, hear shame. S-H-A-M-E. Self-hatred at my expense. It's been proven in research if I have contempt for you, other centered contempt, it flows out, believe it or not ladies and gentlemen, of my own self-contempt. That I will literally hate myself. And while I fly over the contempt thing, the contempt is what Jesus authoring scripture and using through John's writings, that you are a murderer in your heart. I hate you. It's hatred.
That's why, freebie, please don't shut your kids down when they say, "I hate you," to their siblings. People do that. How'd we get into a parenting conference here? I say, "Whoa, whoa." I didn't say let them just mouth off and say everybody they hate people. But say, "Whoa, whoa. Let's talk about it. Tell me more about that and explain." Because sometimes kids are telling the truth. They, in that moment, like in the Bible, they hate, that's contempt. So the idea, I didn't say, just let them have free rein, but say, "Wait a minute. Let's talk about you hating that person."
Contempt, I fly under the banner of Romans 8:1. "There's therefore ..." Now, I'm going to change the word, “no contempt." “… there’s no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus ...” Contempt has the idea of, I will condemn you. And suddenly, you objectify the person. Meaning, you no longer see them, from Joel's excellent talk earlier today here, as an imago Dei, an image bearer. They're not, “I” object. That once “I” objectify, you're just a whatever. That's why we call names and label people, because we don't have to see them as human anymore. That's contempt for me.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
There's a fine, fine line between conviction and content. That unintended will turn into condemnation. All right. Conviction is what God aims for you and I. Conviction leads us into the light. This idea of repentance. Now, conviction can very easily and quickly be used by the enemy to be turned into contempt and condemnation. And the tactic I think often is shame. And what does shame do? It forces you back into the darkness. You see, the aim is different. Being convicted leads us into the light. Contempt and condemnation leads you further into darkness.

Jim Cress:
Satan's already, we know this, the accuser of the brothers and the sisters. I don't want to be that type of person. I don't want to be an accuser, "You, you." I just don't want to be that.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
There's a passage in the New Testament, talks about, "You're just like your father, the devil (John 8: 44). And so, this is a sobering thought. This is a sobering thought, that you and I, that as we, the people of God, participate in the Kingdom of God, our ethics, the way that we live, the way that we work, we're either working to advance the kingdom and participate in our godly father's work. Or when we work through these other means, we're actually following the work of the devil, of the enemy, and we're working against the Kingdom. And so, I think that's another thing that we're seeing through this.

Lysa TerKeurst:
The last one, number four, is stonewalling. And this is shutting the other person out by avoiding them or activating the silent treatment. And oftentimes, the reason this one is so challenging is because it often leads to conflict escalation rather than conflict resolution. So that one is complicated.

Jim Cress:
We call that modern day ghosting, don't we? Or, man, we've gotten so whatever we've gotten, that I just won't like your post anymore on social media, and I'll get your goat that way. But stonewalling has the idea of, not of you taking some time to think, but as I'm shutting you out. I call it, I'm putting you in a personal prison of solitary confinement, and that's the idea. My goal is to put you, which is Blaise Pascal, the philosopher and mathematician said, "All of our problems stem from the inability to sit alone with yourself quietly in a room." So if I can shut you out, ghost you, and make you feel like you don't even exist, that's one of the most heinous crimes I think we make relationally.

Lysa TerKeurst:
This next one. And we'll only do two more here, but this one, it is, I think getting to the heart of when we're trying to discuss the difficult issues now. What do we need to do? Is there some sort of protocol? And it says, listen to the other person with the intent to engage, understand and learn, instead of with the intent to react or counter your point.
So Jim, you came up with an acronym. It's called MATCH. I think MATCH is really important. The M stands for mirror. Simply repeat back exactly what the other person has just said to you, with kindness and accuracy, to make sure that you heard them correctly.

Jim Cress:
That'll keep you out of forcing your agenda, because you're going to mirror back, "This is just what I heard you say."

Lysa TerKeurst:
OK. The A stands for affirm. "I hear you. I believe you. I want to understand you."

Jim Cress:
I now say HUB, which is ... I'm always coming up with something. Use the HUB in conversations. H is, "I hear you." So you can listen to a person, but you don't really hear what they're saying. "I hear you." U is, "I understand you," or, "I'm trying to understand you, I really am." B is, "I believe you." I don't know if she'll remember, but there's a wonderful person, she may be in this room, that said ... And I thought for a second, "I don't even get this." She said, "You know, the most helpful thing when I came to you in crisis was when, Jim, you looked at me and said, 'I believe you.'"

Lysa TerKeurst:
I believe you.

Jim Cress:
And I thought, "I wasn't trying to play counselor, because I do believe you." Because people are spinning in their trauma, going, "Do you think I'm nuts? Does it even make sense?" So you can use that with people, "Hey, I hear you. I understand you. And I believe you."

Lysa TerKeurst:
OK. So we're spelling out the word MATCH. So mirror, affirm. The T is thank. "Thank you for sharing your heart." Now, this is really hard. You may have to literally make your lips do it. "Thank you." Let's practice. Ready, everyone? "Thank you for sharing your heart." That is not going to come natural. And I'm telling you, your flesh is going to want to fight against you ever uttering those words.

Jim Cress:
Let us be mindful, in the brain research, gratitude is all through addiction recovery, it's all through everything, is when you do that, if you're just faking it and doing it. To say, "Thank you that you'd be willing to share." If you're in a good relationship, don't you want the person putting their cards on the table with you? It helps calm your own brain down to say, "Thank you that you'd be willing to bring this to my attention."

Lysa TerKeurst:
OK. So mirror, affirm, thank, clarify. That's the C. "This is what I hear you saying or wanting from me. Do I hear you correctly?" So —

Jim Cress:
And you can add three words, two different ways to do it. Is either say, "Yeah, you're hearing me correctly." These are the tattoos, I told you earlier today. Get on your arm. "Is there more?" "Thank you. There actually is more I'd like to ... I thought you were done. My turn to now hit the ball across the net. "Is there more?" Or, "Tell me more. Thank you." Most people are not well listened to, that's why counseling exists. People pay all this money to be listened to. It's paid friendship, news flash. Sorry. In the idea of saying, "Is there more?" "Thank you. No one ever asked me that. Yeah, there's more I'd like to say." What an invitation.

Lysa TerKeurst:
So M-A-T-C and then the H is help. "What do you need from me or someone else regarding the conversation? Would it be helpful to you if I blank?" And then, you can insert whatever it is that would be helpful.

Jim Cress:
Many of us guys, I hope Joel agrees, seriously, we're known fixers, of jumping to the H fast. It's like, "What do we need to fix this thing?" It's like to wait. That's why I put that H last. Say, "What would be helpful for you?" And then listen.

Lysa TerKeurst:
And the last one that I think is really crucial, and that is, remember it takes three to five affirmations of the other person to counter or balance out one criticism of the other person. So if you're thinking about like, "Ugh, sometimes these hard conversations ..." And on the linear approach that we're taking now, we're educating. Nobody's upset. We're not triggered. All of this. Our hard conversations are not going to be this neat and tidy, but this last one is really good.
If you've had a hard conversation and it goes sideways, and you find yourself slipping into criticism, and you walk away and go, "That was one of the four things that Jim said don't do. It's a conversation killer," just remember it will take three to five affirmations of the other person to counterbalance or equal out one criticism of the other person. Don't skirt over that. If you know that you've criticized someone else, start collecting affirmations of them and pave the way for a healthier conversation the next time. So how do we have —

Jim Cress:
You said collect it, by the way. So wonderful, Lysa. I tell people all the time, "A lot of your best thoughts about your spouse or friend or a loved one, or your kids won't happen in the moment. Observe and go, “That was nice, they did that.” Or, “I like that …” And it might be, “They look so pretty today.” Or, “He looks handsome in that shirt.” Or, “That was neat, they did that." And get a little notebook, a Moleskine journal, something, and write them down, because you'll have it. Paper remembers what the mind forgets.
And we all know this, but look at the affirmations in God's Word — the I am statements of who we are in Christ. Zephaniah, he sings over us. (Zephaniah 3:17). And if you're doubting, all you need is a little primer for getting good affirmations, go to the Word of God.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Paul is a really good therapist, because he starts all of his church letters with affirmations of what they were doing in the [inaudible 00:55:23]. I think Galatia was the only one that he did it, and they were kind of buck wild. But outside of that —

Jim Cress:
Those doggone Judaizers. They did all that. That's right.

Lysa TerKeurst:
So bottom line it for it, and I'm going to use another Jim-ism that I like. I said it last night, you already said it today, but for the purpose of our listening audience, “say what you mean, mean what you say and don't say it mean.” Any last thoughts, Jim and Joel?

Jim Cress:
We ought to end. Seriously, there's been a lot of therapy in this. I'm serious, I'd love to hear your heart from the Word of God about any of this, because God is always in perpetual conversation with us, and Jesus is ever interceding. So I’d love to hear. I don’t have any more than to punt it you, Joel. What are you thinking?

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
I’ll end with God’s word. James 1:19, “My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this..." And then it says, "Everyone," which just so you know, I looked at the Greek and the Hebrew, everyone actually means everyone. It's very simple. “Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry..." (NIV) And if we follow kind of the trajectory of these various points here, these statements, we see that, I believe that God's heart for relationships is preservation if possible. If the relationship is healthy, if it can maintain health, if it can be God honoring, if it can establish all that.
I think it's really interesting — that Hebrew's passage. And this is probably the last thing that I'll say. And then, we will wrap up. But in that Hebrew's passage, the language is so vital, "Make every effort to live in peace with everyone …" (Hebrews 12:14, NIV) And then he says to be holy, and the word holy means to be set apart. Without that set apartness, no one will see the Lord.

Jim Cress:
Wow.

Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
And so, this is that aspect of boundaries. Sometimes with godly therapy and wisdom and the support system, the relationship can be reconciled. The relationship can be restored. All of that is possible. Sometimes in order to live out the reality of this statement, this imperative of the author of Hebrews and Paul in Romans 13, sometimes we remove ourselves from that situation. And our removal of ourselves from this situation is the very conduit of peace that is possible in that.

Jim Cress:
Amen.

Lysa TerKeurst:
All right. Joel, Jim and our listening audience, thank you so much. God bless you.